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Tenbagger2024

@Tenbagger2024

10Lun·

We need to talk!!!

Open discussion.

A report in the last Weltspiegel made me think.

It was about child labor in the cocoa harvest.

Children were shown who had never attended school and lived in catastrophic conditions on the plantations. Who were doing the pest control without protective clothing.

The product chocolate was completely unknown to the children.

Unfortunately, there was no statement from the major confectionery manufacturers and reference was only made to a protection organization. This simply outsources all responsibility and promotes the organization.

How do you proceed with your investments and what role does it play for you?

And shouldn't there be more pressure from the shareholders, because I personally think that such working conditions will be impossible in 2024.

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https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/heil-lieferkettengesetz-100.html

www.tagesschau.deKeine Einigung bei EU-Lieferketten-Richtlinie

39 Comentarios

Kevin E.@KevinE

10Lun

The problem is: if you dig deep enough, you will find problematic issues in almost every (!) major company. Environmental protection, good employment conditions, etc., are all written on the flag. I can say from various companies that the statements to the public were completely different from those made internally.

If I could be sure that everything was right with a company, I would focus more on that. But this way: no chance, because every company has the "potential" to be a monster or "slave driver" - even if it is their sub-sub-sub-suppliers or service providers.

I don't invest in armaments because I don't want to profit from war. I find everything else extremely difficult to evaluate unless you take an extremely close look at it.

In my view, consumers are the ones who have the biggest impact. But even they only ever know what it looks like outside the clean door of the headquarters and not where and how the primary materials and raw materials are procured in detail.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@KevinC
But I think closing your eyes and accepting it, even though this report clearly shows the catastrophic conditions, is not the way to go.
That's why it was important for me to address and discuss it in this forum where investments are concerned.

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Sparfuchs@Reinecke

10Lun

@KevinC Armaments are the most honest business.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@KevinC
Armaments really are a double-edged sword.
In times of more and more aggressors and dictators, unfortunately no one can avoid investing more and more in armaments.
Such companies are perhaps even our life insurance at the moment.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 I think armor/defense is absolutely necessary! I just don't want to benefit from it myself. They are two different things.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 If I knew, for example, that a company was deliberately committing or tolerating criminal acts, I would naturally not invest in it. However, supply chains are now so complex and opaque that hardly anyone can put their hand in the fire. I am a supply chain planner for a large corporation. I've even worked for the supplier of my current employer. But I can't answer where the steel and aluminum comes from. I'm really deep into it, but nobody has the opportunity to check everything. Especially not on a regular basis, at most on a random basis.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@KevinC
It's true that the big companies simply have a great talent for outsourcing responsibility for matters that are not clean.

Only when it comes to children should we no longer accept this.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 I agree - but I've never done it before. However, it is extremely heavy. Every device with a Li-ion battery potentially contains child labor. I would even be unsure about the Fairphone.

And doing without smartphones, future e-cars and all devices with batteries is not really an option.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@KevinC
That is why there should be a resolution banning child labor worldwide.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 even if it were forbidden...

I come from the logistics industry. It is completely normal in Europe today and many players are aware that working hours are massively exceeded and rest periods undercut. Be it parcel carriers or Europe-wide overnight transportation. 20 hours at the wheel, 2,000 km. We've seen it all before. It's also illegal and doesn't take place in Kenya, but on our doorstep.

I agree with you that child labor should be banned and that there should be severe penalties for violations. But it will be almost impossible to monitor this unless several hundred thousand people around the world are tasked with constantly penetrating all companies down to the last detail. Otherwise, it will certainly take several decades before the problem in poor countries is solved.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@KevinC
It is better to keep naming the problems, drawing attention to them and putting your finger in the wound than to ignore them and close your eyes.

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

Unfortunately, you have allowed yourself to be manipulated by the German media, who think they have to broadcast their imperialism to the world. In short, every country has the right to pursue its own policies and organize its own society. If the children there were not working in the cocoa harvest, they might become child soldiers - this kind of secondary effect is not considered at all. Everything that comes from the public is "Muuuuh third world bad, Germany good". Ultimately, that doesn't help anyone at all. But it is useful to nudge the viewers into thinking that it would actually be quite cool to have a world government and a decent leader who is able to solve all the world's ills from his ivory palace in Berlin.

A few centuries ago, there was also child labor in Europe and our kings, when they thought it was possible and sensible, eliminated this situation on their own. Why don't we trust the states in Africa to do the same? Why do we think that we have to march to Nigeria in white uniforms to explain to the people there how to live the RIGHT way?

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@WarrenG
If Wirecard had listened to the media early enough and not dismissed it as manipulation, many would have been spared a lot.

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 What kind of completely off-topic comparison is that? To be honest, I don't see any connection, especially as it wasn't a genuine media issue to warn against Wirecard. Many people have warned against Wirecard, with the explicit exception of Dirk Müller and Olaf Scholz.

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Arroganter F.@werhatdemwirdgegeben

10Lun

@WarrenG wtf? Without Western countries, child and slave labor would probably not even exist. That's why it's our absolute duty to do something about it. At least by not voting for the selfish FDP party!

It's explained quite well using the textile industry as an example in "Konsum - Warum wir kaufen, was wir nicht brauchen" (I can't remember the author). Overall, I'm moderately enthusiastic about the book, but the part about how developing countries are struggling with dumping prices is very interesting, because exploitation is still better than no foreign currency at all. Unbridled capitalism that leads to people being exploited in the most absurd way! There is no such thing as a "social" market economy internationally and we absolutely have to get there!

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

@werhatdemwirdgegeben Huh? Neither child labor nor slave labor was invented by Western countries (or the FDP), but has been an integral part of human history for thousands of years. However, it was the Europeans who were the first to campaign against slavery.

You sum up the problem perfectly: "Exploitation is better than no foreign currency at all". How do you want to solve that? For households, it's also "child labor is better than no income at all". You won't get to grips with this by somehow pumping more money into the system. The guy who sews your shoes will still only get $2 whether you put $50 or $5000 on the counter.

And it's not just corporations like Nike that are making money. There are dozens of state actors who also have a hand in it. Even if you somehow go fair trade, it's at most the marketing budget that can be divided among the workers.

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Arroganter F.@werhatdemwirdgegeben

10Lun

@WarrenG digger.

There were many things in the past that are simply wrong from today's perspective and morality and are no longer acceptable. That is so not an argument.

30 years ago, marital rape was still allowed. Doesn't mean it's ok today. Neither is slave labor okay. And it would be easy to ensure that it no longer exists.

But unfortunately there are simply far too many ignorant morons who don't give a shit and who then vote for the FDP, for example, who block even the smallest attempt to at least oppose it.

The problem is that the exploited people in the exploited states are the most unprivileged individuals on this planet, who cannot defend themselves at all in the capitalist system, but are simply completely at the mercy of us assholes from Europe. And it is only under this premise that "foreign currency is still better than..." applies.

Please take a look at "Consumption - Why we buy what we don't need" by Carl Tillessen. It explains quite clearly how fucked up the whole thing is.

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

@werhatdemwirdgegeben Marital rape was not allowed at all, the offense just had a different name 🤣 That's just like saying murder is allowed just because some perpetrators are convicted of manslaughter instead ... that's what happens when you only read the headlines in left-wing newspapers instead of the articles.

Anyway, I believe you when you say that it's really fucked up with "consumption - why we buy what we don't need" and so on. But the thing is, you completely avoided my question of how you want to solve the problem?

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Arroganter F.@werhatdemwirdgegeben

10Lun

@WarrenG Uh, yeah, whatever. In any case, it was the woman's duty to give herself to the man. So yes, to let herself be raped, so to speak.

First steps in the right direction: awareness of injustice in the world and supply chain law.

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

@werhatdemwirdgegeben Please just stop spouting nonsense about which you have OFFICIALLY not informed yourself. There was no obligation to give yourself to anyone. If you harassed your wife and she didn't want it, it was also a criminal offense back then that could be punished with imprisonment. Only it was not sentenced according to §177 StGB but §240 StGB. It was simply the case that a different paragraph applied to married couples, as the legislator assumed that there was a difference between beating a complete stranger unconscious and dragging her into the bushes and threatening to divorce your wife and putting her under pressure.

Again: The ONLY thing that has changed is the page in the law book that the judge turns to before he quite rightly convicts you of an offense against your wife's self-determination. How you can construct such incredible nonsense from this is beyond me.

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Arroganter F.@werhatdemwirdgegeben

10Lun

This attitude is so blatantly wrong! We could easily do something about it if we were prepared to pay a few cents more for chocolate. But no, we want cheap chocolate, screw it, then children pick the cocoa, can't go to school for it, can't move up and their children have to do the same. So that we in Europe can still eat cheap chocolate in the future.

I'm shocked by so much naivety...

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@werhatdemwirdgegeben
And then they even argue with kings from the Middle Ages.
That's how it is in an affluent society - people have lost absolutely all understanding of the weaker members of society.
Everything is just accepted and you just watch like in a horror movie

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

I don't think such problems should and cannot be solved by the EU alone and, as has been written several times in the discussion, would damage our economy.
That is why the UN should be strengthened much more in order to solve the major problems and thus ensure a level playing field.
This is a problem that should and must be solved globally.

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10Lun

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@Apfel72
Every aid organization has already had a scandal. UNICEF, the Red Cross, etc.

Should we therefore declare bankruptcy and stop making the world just a little bit better?

Giving up because of a few black sheep is no solution either.

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Sparfuchs@Reinecke

10Lun

So we have less than 1000 employees, but we are still bound by the Supply Chain Act because our customers simply demand proof from us. That's also what the big players do, simply delegate responsibility... Shit falls from the top down. From this point of view, the FDP's blockade is incomprehensible. They should have shown Heil the edge on a few of his other issues.

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

The job of journalists is simply to point out grievances. And when it comes to children, I find it very difficult to discuss it away in a succinct way.
Children simply belong in school, even in developing countries, and do not have to feed their families.

And in such an interconnected and global world, I don't think it's in keeping with the times to let countries solve the problem themselves, as the kings did in the Middle Ages.

Fortunately, unlike in the Middle Ages, there are media that uncover grievances and draw attention to them.
And I think that this report will make some consumers rethink their purchasing behavior and perhaps automatically force the industry to rethink.

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Soprano@Soprano

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 Standing up for children is noble and the right thing to do. But you can start with that in this country. If we could manage to protect our children from sexual assault, that would be pretty powerful. Incidentally, most developing countries manage this much better than we do.

Sending all children to school is also a noble goal. But do you know if there are even enough schools? And teachers? These are the things that nobody thinks about here. We imagine that we can somehow solve everything from our sofa at home, but it's not that simple. In many countries that tolerate child labor, the alternative is not a cozy, heated school, but things that are much crueler and worse. The children then end up with human traffickers or warlords or drug cartels. These countries are structurally incapable of solving all problems at once, which is why it makes sense to start with those that are most urgent.

And we're not talking about the Middle Ages here. Child labor in agriculture was only banned in (West) Germany in 1960! We had already taken the children out of the mines in 1839, which means it took over 120 YEARS to gradually abolish it. And you expect the German consumer to order this from the comfort of their couch and for it to be gratefully implemented in the farthest corners of the world tomorrow.

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Tim@Stratege_Tim

10Lun

I have no ethical principles.
Since I own broadly diversified ETFs, I have companies of every color.

Clear point PRO diversification...Or was that diversity! 🤪
Joking aside.

However, I have no principles when it comes to investing. I'm completely honest about that. I don't ACTIVELY exclude stocks from ETFs! How could I?
What I do: When I buy certain companies as individual shares, I buy likeable companies. This includes their image, company policy/company philosophy. Headlines would definitely stop me here.
If you like it that way, I PASSIVELY exclude certain companies. Logical. I only want to invest in the best and strongest companies in my opinion. Everyone has to play by the rules. Otherwise terrible things happen.
--> See Bayer $BAYN and $NACON

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Tim@Stratege_Tim

10Lun

@Tenbagger2024 edited it.

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Dude@Ridick

10Lun

I think the ESG and SRI certificates are even causing banks to waver, as they also want to comply with them. See reports on why Rheinmetall has to pay much higher interest rates than usual on the market, as many (normal) banks do not allow trading in armaments. As an example. I think ESG and SRI are useful and if I were to reorient myself, I would probably switch to an ESG or SRI.... Incidentally, they perform better than normal ETFs but are less diversified. I think the pressure is increasing thanks to ESG and SRI.

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Hodlinvestor@Hodlinvestor

10Lun

European prosperity problem!!!

Just change your perspective!

Would you rather eat or be educated?!!! In case of need rather the food.

My father, for example, had to work from the age of 13 after the war. Otherwise his plate would have remained empty.
He died at the age of almost 70, working almost every day!!!
There was no prosperity then, let alone, as there is now, wealth to be distributed to the lazy!!!
...Yes, different times, different customs...
If the plate remains empty, that will change again. And very quickly!

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@Hodlinvestor
But only education can be the solution to somehow get out of this spiral of poverty.
Only children who receive a good education manage to get out of a Hartz family in Germany and do not end up unemployed like their parents.

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Hodlinvestor@Hodlinvestor

10Lun

In politically stable systems, such as in Europe, definitely yes, plus waiver through working hours (no longer wanted here)

But your report was about child labor on cocoa plantations!
Child labor is forbidden here and there are no cocoa plantations in Germany! So there was no report about German luxury problems.

There is usually no democracy in these countries! Completely unstable political conditions.
There are other daily problems for families, e.g. eating and drinking, than any spelling mistakes in English work.
Ergo, the people must first muster the will for political change and then they can build prosperity through education in peace.
(All my opinion, I'm just here to pass the time😆)

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Schubi@Schubi74

10Lun

If something obviously criminal is going on, I don't invest either. But I don't see that German companies are now responsible for the conditions in Africa. Their governments are responsible for the conditions in third countries. If our politicians want to change something there, then they should exert political pressure or promote specific local projects instead of pumping vast sums of development aid into countries that can afford a space program or new SUVs for all parliamentarians. Imposing control obligations on companies that are impossible to fulfill doesn't help the people on the ground at all, it just establishes another trade in safety certificates and the questionable stories are somehow concealed. These attempts to improve the world on the other side of the world don't work because someone else always gets the business, as you can see with the Russian embargo, the Indian refineries fill their pockets, then the stuff is sold to Europe and Putin laughs his head off.

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10Lun

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@GERMANCAP
I would gladly do without dividends in order to be able to put an end to such conditions.

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10Lun

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Tenbagger2024@Tenbagger2024

10Lun

@Benchmarc
On the other hand, we are upset that more and more young people from developing countries are making the journey to Europe. And hardly anything is being done to combat the problem in developing countries.

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