Investing for Couples (Marriage, Children)

1Semana

@Multibagger In the event of a divorce, a joint brokerage account into which both spouses contribute would be the better (more transparent) choice. This joint brokerage account is then simply divided exactly 50:50 (without a prenuptial agreement), regardless of who contributed how much.

You should not make any further deposits into your individual account—which you bring into the marriage—during the marriage, as this would lead to the commingling of your separate property and marital gains. Thus, the individual account and all organic gains (increases in value) remain the property of the individual, even in the event of a divorce.

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Chris@Multibagger

1Semana

@Xander13 Oh yeah, there's also divorce. After almost 30 years of marriage, that seems pretty far off to me...😂 But you can always have your respective investment accounts separated by contract.

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Philantor@Philantor

1Semana

Aren't there any taxes due when closing a joint account during a divorce? If so, two separate accounts with the same contributions are the better choice.

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Eggplant@Eggplant

1Semana

@Xander13 Maybe I misunderstood you, but the gains from the individual investment account are also split 50/50 in a divorce.

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6D

@Eggplant Yes, what you said is correct for Germany.
In Austria and Switzerland, the gains on an individual investment account brought into the marriage are not divided in the event of a divorce :)

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Eggplant@Eggplant

6D

@Xander13 Okay, I can't speak to Austria. But Germany and Switzerland tax the gains/acquisitions made during the marriage, which also include increases in the value of stocks or real estate that were brought into the marriage prior to the wedding, starting from the date of the marriage.

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6D

@Eggplant That’s not true for Switzerland.

Quote from
https://www.vermoegenszentrum.ch/wissen/nachlassvermoegen-bei-ehepaaren

“A spouse’s separate property includes:

- everything they bring into the marriage
- everything they inherit or receive as a gift during the marriage
- any increase in the value of their separate property (for example, capital gains on stocks and bonds or an increase in the value of real estate)
- items for personal use (clothing, jewelry, etc.)
- compensation claims from accident or liability insurance”

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Ver todas as 2 restantes respostas

6D

Only current income from a stock portfolio counts toward the marital property

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Eggplant@Eggplant

6D

@Xander13 That's interesting; this page says something different: https://einfache-scheidung.ch/ihr-wertschriftendepot-bei-der-scheidung-so-funktioniert-die-gerechte-verteilung

The page I cited would also make sense in this regard, since pension funds handle it exactly the same way in the event of a divorce.

The difficulty in the case you mentioned is that tax-deferred ETFs are treated the same as distributing ETFs for tax purposes, since dividends accrue internally and this would constitute a capital gain (in my opinion). Admittedly, one is tax law and the other is divorce law.

For the sake of completeness: Stocks are treated differently under tax law.

Ideally, one would never have to deal with divorce law.

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1Semana

We share everything: one joint account and a separate account for the kids. During my pregnancy, I had no income, and while on parental leave, I earned only about 350 euros—my husband took on all the financial responsibility during that time. Later, he was sick for an extended period and had significantly less income. By then, I had already finished my degree, was working full-time, and was earning more, so I took on a correspondingly larger share of the financial burden.

For me, that’s exactly what marriage means: whoever can contribute more at the moment takes on more—without “your money, my money” and without constantly having a potential separation in the back of our minds. If we were to separate at some point anyway, everything would be divided fairly or set aside for the kids—and that’s it. 😄

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Eddy@ZPark91

6D

@Suky Your comment has way too few likes. That's how I've been doing it with my wife for years, too. There's no "mine" and "yours." That's what makes a marriage or partnership. We're a team 💪

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1Semana

In our household, everyone manages their own investment account. My wife has a savings plan set up and doesn't really pay much attention to it beyond that. To avoid any arguments, we continue to keep them separate. Our kids have a children's investment account.
So we have three investment accounts that operate independently of one another.

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1Semana

It’s interesting how people take it for granted that a marriage should be 50-50 financially and that couples should have separate accounts. Does this principle also apply to pregnancy, childbirth, parental leave, and career setbacks? As long as these burdens can’t be split in half, I don’t think strict financial separation is fair. Besides, constantly preparing for a possible separation would make me feel like divorce is always on the back of my mind—I couldn’t truly feel safe and secure in a marriage like that.

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1Semana

@Suky I think we need to take a more nuanced approach here and consider how things actually work for each individual. In our case, the only accounts we keep separate are investment accounts and checking accounts. We contribute the same amount to the investment accounts every month, and will continue to do so even after parental benefits stop being paid. Similarly, I’m the only one contributing to our joint vacation fund during the time when we have no other income. Ultimately, both partners should be happy in a marriage—that’s the most important thing :)

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1Semana

@alphawolf May I ask if you both earn roughly the same amount? If not, do you still split all expenses exactly 50/50? And were the same amounts deposited into her investment account as into yours during her parental leave? I just want to make sure I've understood your arrangement correctly.

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1Semana

@Suky I earned less before my parental leave, but I was fine with a 50-50 split because it meant we could save more for parental leave. Both of our savings plans continue with the same amount during and before parental leave. To make that possible, I took on a part-time job.

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1Semana

@alphawolf That sounds like a really fair arrangement for you two. But I think that, unfortunately, things don’t work out that way for many couples, and people often don’t take into account that women miss out on professional opportunities and put their careers on hold due to pregnancy and parental leave. Honestly: I’d gladly give my husband more money if it meant he could take over that damn back pain after pregnancy for just one month. 😅

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1Semana

@Suky It’s really important to me that everything is properly taken care of. A lot of people forget that no contributions are made to a woman’s pension fund during pregnancy and parental leave. All I can tell you is that the back pain sticks around—not from the pregnancy anymore, but from carrying the baby 😬

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1Semana

@alphawolf I guess you're right 😅 Thanks for the nice chat. Wishing you and your family all the best! 😊

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1Semana

@Suky I'd love to 😊—I hope the same for you, too 🥳

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6D

@Suky That's why you should get married before having a child together. Marriage protects the lower-earning spouse in the event of a divorce.

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6D

…since the total earnings are halved and divided

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Metis@Metis

1Semana

For the sake of peace of mind, I’d always keep these things separate. That way, there’s no arguing over who “gambled away” what and whose assets they end up being—especially in the event of a divorce.
And above all, if one of the two has zero interest, all you need to do is open a single brokerage account, set up a savings plan for a global ETF, and let it run.

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Nuqqx@Nuqqx

1Semana

@Metis In the event of a divorce, both brokerage accounts are taken into account when calculating the total assets as of the date of the wedding... at least that's what I've read everywhere.

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1Semana

@Nuqqx Yep, community property—any increase in the value of the investment accounts is divided in the event of a divorce.

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Musikerie@Musikerie

1Semana

@Alpalaka Separation of property should be a given in an emancipated society. During the divorce, my sister had to give up half of her savings account because he was suddenly broke—even though she had taken parental leave twice and done all the care work. As for alimony, she’ll be waiting a long time for that...

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1Semana

@Musikerie "should"
How many people actually do it?

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Metis@Metis

1Semana

@Nuqqx Sorry, I forgot to mention that a prenuptial agreement would also be a good idea...

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1Semana

In the event of a divorce, a joint brokerage account into which both spouses contribute would be the better (more transparent) choice. This joint brokerage account is then simply divided exactly 50:50 (without a prenuptial agreement), regardless of who contributed how much.

You should not make any further deposits into your individual account—which you bring into the marriage—during the marriage, as this would lead to the commingling of your separate property and marital gains. Thus, the individual account and all organic gains (increases in value) remain the property of the individual, even in the event of a divorce.

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Stefan@Da_Fischi

1Semana

@Musikerie That's really tough 😥

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1Semana

My comments apply only to Austria and Switzerland.

In Germany, everything is split 50/50, including capital gains on the investment portfolio that was brought into the marriage. Sorry to all the German users, hahah! 🤣

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Escanor@Escanor

1Semana

@Alpalaka Exactly. That’s why managing our finances separately doesn’t make any sense—unless we’ve opted out of the community of accrued gains.
That’s what we did. Every month, we simply save as much as we can into one account, and at the end of the year, we split it up according to what’s specified in our prenuptial agreement.

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Nuqqx@Nuqqx

1Semana

When you get married, always check or set up the powers of attorney—they're really important for your partner when it comes to stock portfolios! Just a side note

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Harry@Frosch

1Semana

We have joint finances. But my wife has ZERO interest in investing and is absolutely thrilled that I’m handling it. We’ve agreed on the basic strategy and budgets. But we’re operating in the ACWI ETF space for long-term wealth accumulation, so that might be a bit different from trading individual company stocks directly...

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Money Game@MoneyGame

1Semana

Everyone has their own investment account, and we have a joint one.

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DiviDino 🦖.@DiviDino95

6D

Hello from Switzerland: My girlfriend and I each invest independently for ourselves, and we’ve set up a brokerage account for our child into which we made a one-time investment of CHF 4,000 and contribute CHF 100 each month. The portfolio is 99% stocks, with an investment horizon of 18 years (or more). We also deposit any monetary gifts we receive into that account.

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Hans W.@Yushaa

6D

I already had a brokerage account before we got married (my wife didn’t). After we got married, I stopped contributing to mine, and since then we’ve been investing together (we have a joint account anyway; before the wedding, we had a three-account system). Since I handle the finances, I decide when and how much to invest in which ETFs. Since we established a strategy together even before the wedding and have consistently followed it ever since, there aren’t any arguments—just surprise at how quickly the investment account and dividends are growing ;) Our child has had their own investment account since birth anyway, which we and the grandparents (plus other sources like birthday money) contribute to monthly.

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1Semana

With how often people break up these days?! No way—togetherness

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1Semana

@Ayecaramba256 In a divorce, it doesn't matter whether it's a joint account or not

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1Semana

@Alpalaka From my perspective, yes. That way, everything is clearly separated, and deposits and returns are also clearly separated.

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1Semana

@Ayecaramba256 Yeah, but who cares about that during a divorce?
"Community of accrued gains" is the key term here :)

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Nuqqx@Nuqqx

1Semana

@Alpalaka I get the feeling that very few people actually know about this... I've talked about it so many times with my friends, and hardly anyone knows about it

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1Semana

@Nuqqx Yeah, I agree.
You're welcome to keep it separate so it stays "your" portfolio. In the event of a divorce, everything will still be combined and split 50/50.

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Lum0k@Lum0k

1Semana

Or you could just work it out with a prenup... then you can keep those things separate.

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1Semana

@Alpalaka The prenuptial agreement covers that;) I had the securities account excluded

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Erzwo@FYBSTRD

1Semana

@Ayecaramba256 A good lawyer will tear that thing apart for you

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1Semana

@Ayecaramba256 How do you split that?
You contribute €1,000 a month, but your wife only contributes €200 because she's on parental leave.

It would be interesting to know how that works.

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1Semana

@Alpalaka No kids ;) No problem

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Jakob C.@Creutzfeldt_Jakob

1Semana

We have my (main) brokerage account set up as a joint account, but my wife isn't really interested in it—she trusts me and lets me handle it.
Our three kids all have junior brokerage accounts with a savings plan invested in the MSCI World Index, so there's nothing to worry about anyway.

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Musikerie@Musikerie

1Semana

Separation of property ... only when everyone has their own can you truly make joint decisions.

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1Semana

My wife is currently on parental leave and has been without an income for several months. Our investment accounts operate fully automatically and separately from one another (though they hold the same ETFs). Financially, I’m working more to make this period without income less stressful. The ETFs continue to run normally during this time. For our child, we set up a junior investment account in their name right at birth, since we don’t want this to cause any problems down the road—that way, our child is completely free from any financial obligations and can continue investing right away at age 18 (which is the goal).

I’m also generally not a fan of joint accounts; everyone should be able to manage their own finances and keep track of their own expenses.

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1Semana

@alphawolf In the event of a divorce, a joint brokerage account into which both spouses contribute would be the better (more transparent) choice. This joint brokerage account is then simply divided exactly 50:50 (without a prenuptial agreement), regardless of who contributed how much.

You should not make any further deposits into your individual account—the one you brought into the marriage—during the marriage, as this would lead to the commingling of your separate property and marital gains. Thus, the individual account and all organic gains (increases in value) remain the property of the individual, even in the event of a divorce.

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1Semana

@Xander13 That's not true. It makes no difference, since everything falls under the community property regime. Anything acquired before the marriage remains separate property. Anything earned afterward must be divided equally. Let’s say that over the course of a 10-year marriage, I earn 100k plus in my brokerage account and my wife only 50k. Do I have to give up 25k of that to even things out again? So it makes absolutely no difference. Stock portfolio statements make it very easy to determine how much was in the account at the time of the marriage.

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1Semana

@alphawolf If you bring a portfolio of 100k into the marriage and it doubles to 200k by the time of the divorce, and you’ve only used a buy-and-hold strategy and haven’t made any additional contributions to it, that 200k doesn’t fall under the category of marital gains but remains solely yours.

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1Semana

@Xander13 So, does that mean only realized gains count as capital gains?

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1Semana

My comments apply only to Austria and Switzerland.

In Germany, everything is split 50/50, including capital gains on the investment portfolio that was brought into the marriage. Sorry to all the German users, hahah! 🤣

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1Semana

@Xander13 You should have used that info as the headline for your first comment :D

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6D

@alphawolf Appreciation in the value of portfolios brought into the marriage is considered separate property; the ongoing income from them is considered marital gain.

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Charlyfirpo@Charlyfirpo

1Semana

To me, it's a no-brainer. Always keep them separate. Everyone has their own brokerage account and their own checking account😉

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Unbekannter_Bergsteiger@Unbekannter_Bergsteiger

1Semana

@Charlyfirpo In the event of a divorce, a joint brokerage account into which both spouses contribute would be the better (more transparent) choice. This joint brokerage account is then simply divided exactly 50-50 (without a prenuptial agreement), regardless of who contributed how much.

You should not make any further deposits into your individual account—the one you brought into the marriage—during the marriage, as this would lead to the commingling of your separate property and marital gains. Thus, the individual account and all organic gains (increases in value) remain the property of the individual, even in the event of a divorce.

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Charlyfirpo@Charlyfirpo

1Semana

@Xander13 For me, a separate account provides a clearer overview for both men and women. Divorce and arguments are nonsense anyway—that’s not what this issue is about for me.

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1Semana

We, too, have kept everything strictly separate. We talk about saving and investing, but each of us has our own investment account and checking account. Even the kids have their own junior investment accounts. After we got married, we had each other added as authorized signatories on our accounts, just in case.

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Mike U.@MikeUpegui

1Semana

My money is her money, and vice versa. We share the household expenses, and each of us has access to the money. When it comes to investments, I’m the one who handles them the most, but they belong to both of us. We use my son’s allowance, among other things, for Bitcoin DCA.

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InvestingJourney@InvestingJourney

1Semana

We also each have our own investment account and a joint one, where we always put a small amount into an ETF. This is intended to cover 10–15 of our joint expenses. However, the bulk of our investments is managed separately by each of us.

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Susanne@Isus01

1Semana

We keep that separate. My husband dithered around so long with the kids’ investment accounts that I ended up setting them up myself—in my name, with the intention of transferring them to the kids at some point.
He’s not very interested in investing; he asks me for my opinion every now and then, but he does his own thing and I do mine.

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1Semana

@Isus01 I recommend letting the depot run directly onto the children

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Susanne@Isus01

1Semana

@alphawolf I looked into the legal aspects for Austria back then, and it was a bit complicated. As far as I know, everything would have to be protected against insolvency. I know the framework conditions are different in Germany.

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1Semana

Definitely two separate brokerage accounts. Even if you’d rather not think about it right now, disputes or a separation or divorce can happen.
With two separate brokerage accounts, you’ll always be able to take action even in that case.

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1Semana

@Olli68 Especially in the event of a divorce, a joint account is better because it allows you to more clearly distinguish the individual account you brought into the marriage. This individual account and any appreciation in its value remain the property of the individual as long as you can prove that you did not make any further deposits into it during the marriage (otherwise, assets brought into the marriage and marital gains would be commingled).

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1Semana

@Xander13 If there are problems in the marriage, either spouse could freeze the joint brokerage account and prevent the other from making transactions. That can suddenly be very painful.
The subsequent division of assets or the corresponding compensation for one partner can be resolved in a divorce. Whether there is a joint account or two separate accounts is irrelevant in this regard.

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1Semana

P.S.: To make any future division easier, I would even keep one partner’s original brokerage account open and open two new accounts upon marriage, which would be funded with money earned during the marriage.
If no further deposits are made into the original account, it will be secure in the event of a divorce.

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1Semana

My comments apply only to Austria and Switzerland.

In Germany, everything is split 50/50, including capital gains on the investment portfolio that was brought into the marriage. Sorry to all the German users, hahah! 🤣

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Chris@Psychedelic_Sunflower

1Semana

@Xander13 I live in Switzerland and have gone through a divorce there. So my comments apply to Switzerland.
I didn’t realize that things work a little differently in Germany. A third account would be unnecessary there. But two separate accounts would also be required there (for me) for the reasons mentioned.

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1Semana

We’re in a community of accrued gains, but we each save and invest on our own. We have a joint account for shared expenses, into which each of us deposits a fixed amount every month; this money is then used to pay for our home, utilities, vacations, dining out, and groceries.

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1Semana

In the event of a divorce, a joint brokerage account into which both spouses contribute would be the better (more transparent) choice. This joint brokerage account is then simply divided exactly 50:50 (without a prenuptial agreement), regardless of who contributed how much.

You should not make any further deposits into your individual account—which you bring into the marriage—during the marriage, as this would lead to the commingling of your separate property and marital gains. Thus, the individual account and all organic gains (increases in value) remain the property of the individual, even in the event of a divorce.

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Musikerie@Musikerie

1Semana

@Xander13 That makes just as much sense as your spitefulness. No one sets up a joint account with a possible divorce in mind. You either draw up a prenuptial agreement or you don't.

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6D

@Musikerie You simply don't need a prenuptial agreement if both partners contribute equally to a joint investment account during the marriage anyway. This means there is automatically no commingling of separate property and marital property.

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