1 million is enough in old age ? Dream on 🙈

My dear, what the community does here. Very few people in Germany do that. So it's already an advantage. And that's why I wouldn't want to downplay 1 million. You should also bear in mind that the Ponzi scheme takes effect much more quickly from such a sum. And after 1 million, the second one often follows quickly.
So again, I wouldn't worry too much about that.
And you're on the right track

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Mo@BigMo

@Tenbagger2024 When it comes to the general German share culture, our community has a huge head start 😁
As always, whether a million is "enough" or not depends on your personal needs and spending.
In my opinion, it is always better to calculate conservatively and possibly be happy about unexpected overperformance in the end than the other way around.

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Schweizer_Investor@Alumdria

@BigMo
That is true. But it could also quickly turn into panic. With the fear that it might not be enough. And fear is not a good advisor.

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@Tenbagger2024 I think so too. We are in a bubble here, and very few people invest their money in shares, ETFs, commodities and perhaps even real estate. It's probably not much different for me in Switzerland. The reality is usually different. Most people rack up consumer debt through shopping, clothes and expensive vacations and live from month to month. But then complain again on the other side because they can't afford food due to the oh-so-evil inflation. These are basic needs according to Maslow's pyramid, and not unnecessary consumption that doesn't actually make you happy or only makes you happy in the short term.

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@Alumdria
Thank you, well summarized

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@Tenbagger2024 Jau.....Rin a good measure of optimism is ALWAYS part of it, if only to be able to compensate for setbacks.

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123unddie8@123unddie6

I don't think anyone who is involved enough with shares etc. thinks they would then live in luxury. Only those who have envy and redistribution as a hobby believe that.

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@123unddie6 Why can't I give several thumbs up here?

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Mo@BigMo

Anyone can simulate their portfolio on portfoliovisualizer.com free of charge, including deposits and withdrawals.
This gives you an indication of your pension and allows you to play with various allocations.

A few tips:
I would enter a more conservative expected return manually for individual assets (ChatGPT o3 can help)
Especially if you hold BTC, you will get completely unrealistic results with historical values.
Since many ETFs do not have a sufficient history, you have to find equivalents to adequately reflect your own allocation.

If it is interesting, I can write a guide specifically for German investors.

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@BigMo Yes, I would love to, that sounds interesting.

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TeePee@TeePee

Yes, that's enough. It also continues to rise. For many years, I've been making 6.5% per year in share performance over the long term, plus pretty much exactly 2% dividends AFTER tax.

The portfolio has therefore outperformed inflation, and as I have also paid off a property I use myself, the dividends are enough for me to live on. I don't withdraw anything, I even continue to save.

6.5% doubles the capital roughly every 11 years. So 1 million at 65 becomes 2 million at 76! And if you manage to do this a little earlier, you'll soon have much bigger figures.

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@TeePee well...you just have to know what exactly you want. Personally, this is how I see it for my time AFTER 65 (i.e. in a good 5 years' time): ALWAYS live first class - otherwise your heirs will. This doesn't mean that you should squander everything, but the savings policy would at least be restricted a little in favor of a few trips or other activities so that the capital doesn't have to double at any price.

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TeePee@TeePee

@ZaphodB Or just have the first million full at 45....
I also don't see that you don't need luxury (anymore) in old age. It's precisely then that you no longer want to travel by bus and train, hostels or economy class. I prefer cabs, hotels, business.

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MarTheRadi@marda304

I think there are enough places in the world where you can live well for €4k a month. It doesn't have to be central Munich.

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Dividende > Zinsen@GoDividend

@marda304 100% correct. There are even extremely nice places where you can live well for little(er) money.
If you can (e.g. due to retirement or working from home), you can also simply live in a cheap place and regularly spend a long weekend in a hip place (Munich, Hamburg, Vienna, Prague, somewhere else) to get the quality of life you want. In any case, it's much cheaper than paying 2500 euros a month to rent an apartment in Schwabing. Especially in old age, I might want a little house with a view of the countryside rather than an expensive old apartment in the city.

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In 25 years, I'll know more and see what I've achieved in the depot.
Until then, I'll do my best without moping around like most people here in the community.
The people here probably do more than people outside the bubbles.

That will be enough and if not I can't change it and have to see how I manage.

With 3 children, there's a good chance that I'll end up in a basement somewhere

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Dividende > Zinsen@GoDividend

@GoDividend The best way to do this is to introduce the kids to values and appropriate behavior at a very early age, perhaps with their own "mini depots"? That motivates them. I was lucky that mine knew very early on what he wanted. In this case, a job in which he could work his way up (without a high school diploma or university degree) and the house next door. He realized THAT at 18. Not alone, but in charge. But that doesn't include partying every weekend and you're more likely to swap a flying vacation in the summer for lying in the pool at home. It's quieter there anyway.

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@ZaphodB I think 99% of those who are parents here have set up junior depots ✅

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Enrique@Dividenden_Monteur

1 million would easily be enough for me.
Anyone paying 1500 - 2000 rent should think about moving anyway

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@Dividenden_Monteur In 30 years, you can get a 20 square meter apartment for €2,000. That's the problem. 1 million now would easily be enough for me. But never in the future.

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Enrique@Dividenden_Monteur

@Dividenden_Monteur It depends a little on the circumstances....4- a family of up to 5, depending on the location....it doesn't even have to be a rented house, a 100-120 square meter apartment off the cheapest prefabricated housing estate is enough to get you into these rental price spheres. To be honest.

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@ZaphodB I was assuming that I was a pensioner, but to be honest you don't need such a huge place if there are two of you.

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Enrique@Dividenden_Monteur

@Max095 In Berlin or another big city perhaps, yes.
Do you want to live in a big city as a pensioner? I certainly don't.
I have my 120 square meter house in the countryside and it will be paid off by the time I'm 50.
Maybe even before that if I live separately

So 1 mil is easily enough for me.

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devnerd_daddy@devnerd_daddy

@Dividenden_Monteur A paid-off house was also important to me. Two more years and I'll only owe the ISB a little money. And until they want that, I have enough time to save up money.

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@Dividenden_Monteur If possible (e.g. due to retirement or working from home), it is best to move to a cheaper location.
And: buy a property and don't rent. Why the hell would you want to rent when you can sometimes manage the interest and repayments for just a little more per month. Then there will be no successive rent increases and at some point in old age you will have a paid-off apartment with only service charges and no basic rent.
Renting only makes sense if you know that you will have to keep moving for work and will only be in the same place for a few years at a time.

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@Dividenden_Monteur Good approach. Even if you like big cities, you can live in the countryside cheaply and in a relatively large area and at the same time buy or rent a mini-apartment in the city that you can use on a daily basis if necessary.
Most people are simply too rigid in their thinking and think they have to live in their familiar surroundings for all eternity.

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Dirk aus Stade@dirko68

@Dividenden_Monteur Maximilian is not talking about today, but about the distant future. Who knows where rental prices are heading

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I think only very few people manage to save 1 million for their old age. And still have a good life in old age.

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Sina@lawinvest

Depends a bit on when you are "old". If you're 50 today, you'll be fine 😉 Very few people come from a job where you net over 4,000 a month.

I don't think the pension system is broken, it's broken. The system doesn't work as such, regardless of the issue of saving, because there are currently too many old people. This may change when the boomers are dead. Then our age structures will be different again. Nevertheless, because we are getting older and older, there will be proportionally more and more pensioners and we may end up facing similar problems. In my opinion, the whole thing needs to be reformed. But nobody will do that

I also think it's a great impertinence that the retirement savings account is only for children (I'm looking forward to the draft law), because I would get one straight away - even if there are bound to be flaws. Even without that stupid €10. That would simply be a self-managed Rürup without any costs for me.

But: the state is obliged to provide for you somehow. That means you still have to take some of the state's contribution into account in your forecast.

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@lawinvest The pension system is based on the WW2 post-war order, where the calculation was based on relatively few old people and relatively many young people. So you are right - the current pension system is simply no longer sustainable and efficient with today's demographics. It should have been gradually converted from the intergenerational contract to a deposit-based system back in the 1970s.
Of course, nobody in politics is doing this because it is a hot potato and unpopular. First of all, there are only cuts and additional costs - the benefits will only become apparent decades later.

I'm glad that I never paid into the state pension (or only for a negligible number of years). It's been clear for a long time that it's garbage.

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GurkiHDx@GurkiHDx

@lawinvest The question I ask myself is: the state is obliged to provide for me in some way, but how much and how much money can you have yourself? Then it's like the citizen's income: You have to disclose your finances and are only allowed to own a certain amount, otherwise you get nothing. That's how I could imagine it.

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Tamas A.@threepillarsoflife

@GurkiHDx Yes, the people who are diligent, save, think and build something are being punished. 👏🏻Wie always

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I kindly disagree. The issue isn’t the one million—it’s your targets. Start by calculating your current monthly expenses and projecting them forward with yearly inflation. That will give you a more realistic idea of how much you actually need to save.

Also, keep in mind that your spending habits may change as you age. You might spend less on commuting, dining out, or other day-to-day activities.

Yes, healthcare can be costly, but the best strategy is to invest in your health now to reduce expenses later. If your goal is to invest today so you can eventually live better than you do now, you're not planning for retirement—you're planning for a different career path or lifestyle shift.

Easy 3 steps to follow :
1, Calculate your annual costs and adjust them for inflation over 10, 20, or 30 years. That’s your real target.
2, Don’t inflate your lifestyle just because you earn more.
3, And if you’re not yet satisfied with how you're living today, focus on improving that first—before thinking about retirement.

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Tobi60@Tobi60

Who knows, maybe the deposit will also be increased by then? Then the million will certainly be enough in old age 😅

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THAT sounds VERY pessimistic - or just like the standard pattern: one person says the glass is half full - the other sees it as half empty. Seber, I actually started far too late with the share business - a feat - I first had to finance my own house and now half of my son's, who bought it when he was 18 and in training. Self-defense, it's all right next to each other and THAT'S WHY the value of the property alone is already in the 7-figure range. So you could have the million elsewhere. When I signed the partial retirement agreement, I noticed something that prompted me to take a sledgehammer to two very broadly invested securities accounts to compensate for the deductions if I retired two years early. The plan was to have monthly dividends of 300-360 euros, but so far it has been around 1000 a month, supported by a share and ETF share of around 80000 euros plus dividend-free shares, another good 25 K€ - yes, I know, you can hardly rely on American equities alone, I now focus more on ETFs, preferably with IE location, so as not to have to pay withholding tax. There are still 4 years to go until retirement and the rest of this - until then I hope to push everything a little higher. But - to close the circle again.....Who in the NORMAL population is still able to save an amount of 1 million or more today? You either have to be VERY involved in the stock market business or earn very well. With a standard salary, savings rates of more than 1000 euros a month are probably not the rule. And you don't even have to live in major cities like DUS, Cologne, Munich, Berlin and the like to have to pay an easy 800 to 1000 euros WARM for a standard apartment of 80 square meters. Anyone who then still needs a car or has other burdens....will at best dream of having millions saved up for retirement. Sounds like complaining at a very high level. If I get a quarter of this amount into my portfolio by the time I retire, it will have gone better than I could have imagined - ok, not counting the real estate. But that is also more of a book value, as I use it myself. So the Swabian wisdom still applies - raffe, schaffe, Häusle baue....

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Harald@Madhatter5566

Why are you calculating without consumption? You can easily live on it for a few decades.

And what is your conclusion if you stick to the fact that one million is too little? Work until you're 80 and then bequeath 2 million because you're dead? Or not start at all?

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Mav83!@Maverick4831

How can you go through life so negatively in this dream weather?
A million is enough for an average life at best?

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Homer@Simpson

Nevertheless, to have or not to have 1 mil in old age. That would reassure me considerably if, according to my pension statement, I can expect a pension of currently €2000 gross in 2053 😂

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@Simpson You're right. You'll easily manage that too! 🚀 But a €2,000 pension is great. Are you still a civil servant?

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Homer@Simpson

@Max095 It's gross 🤣 and the question is if €2000 gross is a joke in 2025, what will it be worth in 2053 🤣 no, unfortunately not a civil servant 😂

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Mark777@Mark777

If the pension comes at 70, it should be enough🤫
Plus the decommissioned Riester minus taxes.
I'll never forget how the SPD celebrated this disaster👏

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Show answer

Dukke@Dukke

1 million invested in a world ETF, for example, brings an average annual return of 7% - 25% tax on profits is approx. 5000 EUR/month, without pension/salary. Too little? I don't think so.

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SemiGrowth@SemiGrowth

1. in old age you usually have lower costs, as leisure activities, commuting, etc. are no longer necessary
2. 3-5% inflation is quite exaggerated, you should rather expect 2%
3. the statutory pension is on top of that
4. 3-4% can be withdrawn fairly safely, even if there is a market crash

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Jakobi@Jakobi

@Max095You are making a lot of extreme assumptions here.

- 3-5 % inflation.
Historically, 2 % is realistic. Your assumption is twice as high
- A 30% crash of the portfolio at 70.
You have completely different investment strategies in old age. More cash. Focus on dividend-paying companies. This makes you less sensitive to crashes overall. At the same time, the dividend does not fall in the event of a crash. So your monthly income remains the same.

In addition, there is the state pension (admittedly this covers the minimum quality of life and no more). But you can eat from it and have a small roof over your head.

Conclusion: Anyone who retires with 1 million can be proud of having achieved this level of wealth. Most people don't manage that.

With 1 million in savings + pension, you can live well, eat well and go on vacation. That's all people want. So don't talk them down.

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Solitair@Solitair

What is your counter-proposal? If you only have one million, then you only have one. should you go to the casino and bet on red? then you might have two or even none left.
I'd be interested in your suggestions, because that's a scenario I'll probably find myself in when I retire.
I think €1500 to €2000 rent is a rather conservative figure, because that's what you already pay in many places.

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PikaPika0105@PikaPika0105

So I'm planning more like 100-500mio :)

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Sansebastian@Sansebastian

The question is also, who needs luxury in old age and how is "your luxury" defined? If I can live carefree in old age and don't have to worry about whether I can afford this and that, then that's quite enough. In old age, you want to have peace and quiet and see your grandchildren grow up. I don't need a villa or a Porsche anymore. I'd rather save money every month for my grandchildren.

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Schweizer_Investor@Alumdria

But then I'm lucky that I still have 34 years until I retire😅

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Walter S.@Roots

What would be the conclusion?
Not to invest, to take everything off the table?

There are a few options missing from your calculation: Wage increase, freedom from debt, costs that sometimes fall, and "compound interest", among other things.
Profits that I reinvest also counteract inflation...
Greetings

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