1Yr·

+++ Everything you need to know about the advance lump sum +++

What is the advance lump sum?

The advance lump-sum tax is a specific taxation of investment income (funds, ETFs). In total future profits in advance taxes are levied on future profits.


Is this a new scam by the state to make money?

Yes and no. The advance lump sum has been around since its introduction in 2018, but the tax is only now becoming interesting for investors, as it will only apply from 2024 comes into force. The main reason for the change in the legal situation was the tax deferral effect of accumulating ETFs. As the funds reinvested the dividends, the tax office only received the taxes when the fund was sold. With distributing ETFs, on the other hand, the tax office received tax on every distribution (provided the saver's lump sum of €1000 was used up). The aim of the law was therefore to create a kind of equality between accumulating and distributing ETFs.


How does the tax work?

First of all: Well done Germany! - The upfront lump sum is not very complicated, no calculations and bureaucracy for us investors, the broker takes care of everything and tells us the value of the tax due.


1. the prime rate is published by the Federal Ministry of Finance

2. you have a positive performance of your fund/ETF

3. prime rate is credited to your investment amount

Sounds simple: now it gets "more complicated"


Example calculation:

- Investment amount: €100,000

- Base interest rate 2023: 2,55%

- Formula: Investment sum * base interest rate * 0.7 = €1,785


But: If the increase in value is less than the value calculated above, then only this value is taxed.


Example calculation:

- Investment amount: €100,000

- Base interest rate 2023: 2,55%

- Formula: Investment sum * base interest rate * 0.7 = €1,785

- Increase in value: €1,500


The tax office then continues to calculate with the €1,500, and the €285 falls by the wayside.

Special feature: Accumulating equity ETF: partial exemption of 30%


Example calculation:

- Investment amount: €100,000

- Base interest rate 2023: 2,55%

- Formula: Investment sum * base interest rate * 0.7 = €1,785

- Increase in value: €1,500


The tax office then continues to calculate with the €1,500, and the €285 falls by the wayside. In addition, there is now a saving of 30% on the value:


Actual value: €1050

And NO, you don't have to pay €1050! Only this amount is now subject to capital gains tax + any solidarity surcharge + church tax.

Actual advance lump sum: 1050* 0.265 = €278.25


Are only accumulating ETFs affected by the advance lump sum?


No, the same process is also carried out for dividend ETFs. (The distributions are automatically deducted from the advance lump sum)


What exactly should I do now?


It is important that everyone deposits money in the clearing account at the end of 2023. I can only guess whether the broker will make an announcement about the tax ... but I think so.

Sources:

- https://youtu.be/DBKI29k4nI

- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorabpauschale











attachment
37
59 Comments

profile image
Paying taxes again on already taxed money is robbery, in CH there are no capital taxes...
14
profile image
@Notroht One of the reasons why so many emigrate to Switzerland
1
profile image
@suscimer Unfortunately, from the turn of the millennium onwards, DE will be driven to the wall as the economic engine for the entire EU...
1
profile image
@Notroht And in Switzerland there is no value added tax either? No oil tax? You pay taxes every time you buy something with your money.
2
profile image
@Notroht how it is as CH with account at a German bank / broker. Does this pre-tax not apply?
profile image
@MWS There is no advance tax as a CH taxpayer, no matter which broker you are with and no capital tax either. But there is also a dividend tax. But with dividends from CH companies you get it back...
1
profile image
@devnerd_daddy This does not change my statement that there is no capital gains tax in CH. The gains on the sale of shares are tax-free.
1
@Notroht Only the profits are taxed. To my understanding, where do you pay taxes twice on profits from capital investments?
profile image
@YannickSch Most people have a salary, which is taxed. With a certain remaining amount one wants to improve his life situation and invests e.g. in shares. If you have to pay tax on this amount again when you are successful and balance this investment, you have paid tax on this success twice.
3
@Notroht I do not find because only the profit is taxed, the profit was not there when the investment was made and has therefore not been taxed. I find it rather unfair that the tax rate for capital gains tax here is 25% for all as far as I know (certainly not always and without exception) and there is no progression in it. So under 25% for lower incomes or low capital gains and up to a maximum tax rate of up to say 42% as on salary. The discussion about it leads me but too far 😅 About no capital gains tax I would not complain but :D
1
profile image
@YannickSch You asked, I gave my view. I think the officials should open another donation account for citizens who would like to pay even more taxes. 😅🥳🙃👍
1
View all 11 further answers
The tax does not come into effect in 2024 (the investment tax reform came into effect on 01/01/2018) , but has its first effect in 2023 because we had a negative prime rate in the years before (-0.88%). Please correct
3
profile image
What a bullshit. You don't realize profits and you have to pay taxes.
2
profile image
@Anilo The taxes paid are then of course taken into account in the final sale, but of course I agree with you 👍🏼
profile image
@Anilo Assume that in 2024 the investment amount has increased from 100k to 120k and you have paid an upfront lump sum. In the next year, the value of the portfolio drops again to 100k. Then one has paid taxes on a return of 0%. The consideration of the final purchase does not help much, because the paid amount is only deducted from the taxable profit. You can not demand a tax on a book profit...where are we actually landed?
1
profile image
@TimLie
whether the return falls to 0% or even goes into the negative is only relevant when you sell... I have the feeling that many do not WANT to understand it.
profile image
@FinanzFabi I agree with Timlie. I have to pay taxes on a book profit. In the following year, the value falls back to the initial value to then go up again, for example, 20%. I then pay double taxes on the same 20%, which makes the ETF very unattractive. Maybe I never sell, then I am only paying taxes and from the increase in value is eventually nothing left.
1
profile image
@Artiskon I agree. @FinanzFabi Even if I decide to sell, I don't think the "offset" is fair. It would be fair to calculate how much income tax would be due on the total profit when selling and then look at how much upfront flat rate a person has paid so far. Then the tax office could charge the difference because of me. But no, it deducts the tax already paid from the profit and then charges capital gains tax on the remaining value. Imagine you have paid 20 years advance lump sum and you have to sell your Etf at +/- 0€. Then you fill your loss pot because you paid taxes??? What kind of junk is that? And then the federal government stands up and says they want to promote the investment interests of citizens.... Ouch
1
profile image
I have another question: What happens if the value of the investment decreases? E.g. from 100,000 to 90,000 euros. Then the advance lump sum is not taken back, right? And then in the following year it increases again from 90,000 to 100,000, will the book profits be applied again and deducted once more? My exemption allowance is used up, i.e. the advance lump sum takes full effect.
2
profile image
@FrauB 1) The advance lump sum only applies in case of positive performance (everything over 100,000€) 2) The advance lump sum is first levied in 2024 because of the positive prime rate. From 2024 you can apply for a new FSA.
1
profile image
Unfortunately, I no longer found the source on the Internet. Then it will probably not be true.
2
profile image
I am still missing the info that only funds launched after 2018 are affected.
1
profile image
@TimLie Are you sure? Then most ETFs would not be taxed? Actually the tax would have been due from 2018, but due to the negative base rate nothing was levied
profile image
@suscimer I have read up so. I can look it up again this evening.
1
@TimLie is of course wrong ...
1
profile image
@TimLie I'm still waiting for the source, by the way ;)
View one more answer
profile image
@DividendenWaschbaer Thanks for tagging 🤩 I never read the post, but how that could happen to me is a mystery
1
profile image
But the broker's exemption order is taken into account first, isn't it?
profile image
profile image
@suscimer so if I don't get over my allowance, I don't have to actively pay taxes either?
profile image
@ObiObi Well, no capital gains tax, but withholding tax is not added to it
profile image
Thanks for the interesting post 👍@ccf
profile image
profile image
Ne, so slowly I have no more Bock😐
profile image
@Ueberzeugterkapitalist Yes well is just so😵
profile image
If you sell the ETF shares, do you have to pay trd. The 25% capital gains tax pay? Or is this then offset because of double taxation? Thank you 👍🏼
profile image
@Moin_Moin Current: You sell your ETF with 25% capital gains tax From 2024: You end up paying 25% capital gains tax as you go along - the units already paid, so much less -> reinvesting and distributing are put on an equal footing
Tldr, was?
profile image
@Herrschacht the government wants your money and is now taking its share of the book profits of your ETFs.
1
profile image
@Herrschacht forget the previous speaker. The state equalizes two different types of investment and in the end exactly the same amount of taxes is paid when selling. Before 2018 just everything at the sale at once and now piece by piece in small installments every year which is offset at the final sale. Funfact: For most of the rumheulen here and have little idea, because they have always made "buy & hold" as a small private investor so it is even better in the end, because every year the Vorabpauschale with the exemption order is offset which would normally expire with those unused every year and only once at the sale is taken into account.
3
profile image
@RisingAktie Well presented!
1
profile image
Nanu... sounds kind of familiar: https://getqu.in/QOLt7E/ 😉
Show answer
profile image
how/where do you enter the then an advance lump sum tax in the Getquin portfolio?
Show answer
Deleted User
1Yr
Comment was deleted
Show answer
Join the conversation