2Yr·

Dear Qins,


with all the interesting fundamental discussions around equity investments: dividends vs. growth, single stocks vs. ETFs, B&H vs. timing, one asset class that is very interesting in my opinion has hardly been considered so far: Gold.


When this topic comes up at all, it often gets emotional. Either gold is vigorously criticized (Coiner, DivInvestors) or vehemently defended (Goldbugs). In my contribution, I want to promote a sober approach to the topic and take a closer look at the most important arguments for and against it.


1. what are the reasons against gold?

2. what are the arguments in favor of gold?

3. how to invest in gold?

4. conclusion


1. what are the reasons against gold?


Contra argument 1: Gold is an unproductive, useless stone.


Gold generates no income, no dividends, no interest payments. Classical valuation models of productive assets do not work (discounting of future profits, for example). Thus, gold has no value from an income perspective.

Gold is a largely useless metal: too soft, too rare, too expensive. Only 8.2% of annual gold production is demanded by industry. The rest goes into vaults as bars or to people as jewelry.


Counter-argument 2: Gold is a risky asset class.


Gold ownership was banned in D 1936-45, in GB 1966-71 and in USA 1933-73. Even if it is not likely and other asset classes are rather regulated before, it can happen again.

Gold is at all-time highs right now. From highs it fell 52% in 1980-82 and 42% in 2011-2015. Drawdowns like that happen with stocks, too, but....


Contra argument 3: Gold has a poor risk-reward ratio.


Basically, gold brings the return of bonds with the risk of stocks. A backtest of the 50-year performance of U.S. stocks, U.S. government bonds and gold shows what is meant by this:


Backtest 1973-2023:

US Stock Market: 10.2%pa, -51% maxDD

US Intermediate Treasury: 6.50%pa, -14% maxDD

Gold: 6.80%pa, -62% maxDD


2: So what else is in favor of gold?


Pro-argument 1: Gold is a good crisis protection.


In times of crisis gold often rises and cushions losses:

a. 1974: S&P500: -30%; Gold: +66%.

b. 2002: S&P500: -23%; Gold: +26%

c. 2008: S&P500: -39%; Gold: +4%

d. 2022: S&P500: -19%; Gold: +0.5%.


Pro Argument 2: Gold is a very good diversifier.


Gold is almost uncorrelated to stocks and bonds. Therefore, adding gold improves the risk-reward ratio of almost any portfolio.

Below I did two backtests with a stock portfolio and a stock-bond portfolio to which I added gold in different ratios.


Backtest US Stocks, Gold 1973-2023 (=50 years!)

100% Stocks 10.19%pa, -50.9% maxDD

90% Stocks, 10% Gold 10.32%pa, -45.4% maxDD

80% Stocks, 20% Gold 10.34%pa, -39.6% maxDD

70% Stocks, 30% Gold 10.24%pa, -33.5% maxDD



Backtest US Stocks, Bonds, Gold as of 1973

60% stocks, 40% bonds, 0% gold 9.15%pa, -28.0% maxDD

55% stocks, 35% bonds, 10% gold 9.29%pa, -24.5% maxDD

50% stocks, 30% bonds, 20% gold 9.36%pa, -21.0% maxDD

50% stocks, 25% bonds, 25% gold 9.46%pa, -21.4% maxDD

45% Stocks, 25% Bonds, 30% Gold 9.26%pa, -19.0% maxDD


The optimal ratio of gold to the portfolio is therefore 25-30%. This means that the same return can be achieved in both variants with significantly reduced risk. The usually recommended 5%-10% have no significant effect. One can only guess why this is recommended anyway.


Pro-argument 3: Gold trading is tax exempt in Germany.


For tax purposes, gold is considered money in Germany. Physical purchase of gold is VAT exempt. After one year all profits on physical gold or corresponding certificates (Xetra Gold/ EuwaxII Gold) are tax free. With a weighting in the depot of 30% this can become quite significant!


Pro-argument 4: Gold is universal money.


All people understand gold as a child: it is beautiful, it is finite, it is useless. Therefore, it has always been the ultimate currency in all cultures of mankind for over 5000 years. Even today, gold can be exchanged for local currencies and goods all over the world. Those who have to flee war or the like can build a new life with a few grams of gold.

Physical gold is the only liquid tradable asset without counterparty risk. It can be viewed as an interest-free, default-proof bond with an infinite maturity.

Bitcoin is referred to as digital gold, not vice versa gold as analog bitcoin! I wonder where the "coin" in the name comes from? This alone gives an idea of what the measure of all (stock exchange) things is.


3. how to invest in gold?


Forms of investment: Physical and paper


Essentially, there are two ways to invest in gold: 1. physical gold in the form of coins, bars, jewelry. 2. purchase of entitlements to physical gold in the form of Xetra Gold, Euwax II Gold (only these two are tax-free tradable in D).


Disadvantages of physical gold:

Storage. A safe hiding place has to be found or a safe has to be bought or rented. No problem with XetraGold.

Security: Physical gold can be physically stolen. For example in case of a burglary or during physical trading. The latter can be solved with a trustworthy gold dealer, but is basically no problem with XetraGold.

Authenticity. The authenticity of physical gold must be assured by reputable traders. No problem with XetraGold.

Premium. The spread between the buying and selling price of common coins is usually 1-2%, but can increase significantly in times of crisis. No problem with XetraGold.


Advantages of physical gold:

Anonymity: Gold in private possession cannot be traced, so to speak. It is therefore a store of value that is largely beyond the reach of the state. Unlike a deposit or account or XetraGold.

Storage costs: The storage of gold basically costs nothing. Every other form of investment has storage costs.

Transportability: Gold is highly transportable due to its value density. Most people should be able to carry the gold weight of all their assets (cash, stocks, house, paintings) without any problems. Impossible with XetraGold.

Access: In case of a serious crisis, one has immediate access to a store of value. Inaccessibility of the broker, closed banks can at least be cushioned with physical gold.

Aesthetics: A gold coin in PP or a gold ring is simply prettier to look at than an entry in the deposit.


Investment strategies: Passive and active


The optimal form of investment depends on your own investment strategy. For passive strategies (buy-and-hold) physical gold is the best form, because then there are no ongoing costs (offers no other asset). With an active strategy paper gold is suitable, since here a fast and favorable trade of also larger quantities is possible.

Buy-and-hold offers itself, if one understands gold as financial crisis insurance or life insurance without current costs. Active strategies are suitable if one tries to improve the portfolio performance with timing. For example, gold tends to rise above the 200-day moving average or when the yield curve is falling. Gold has followed an 8-year dollar cycle since 1971/72. If you had always invested in that, you would have gotten to about 17.5%pa. Or: integrating gold into GTAA improves the return by up to 1%pa.


4. conclusion


Gold will probably always arouse emotions. However, taking a sober look at it as one asset among many can be worthwhile. As an admixture (25-30%), gold can dramatically reduce the risk of the portfolio and at the same time offer a millennia-old insurance against crises of all kinds.


Have I forgotten another important argument? Do you disagree or do you find gold interesting as an admixture as well? I look forward to a lively discussion!


Addendum 1: If paper gold, then Euwax2 Gold. Is like XetraGold tax-free, but costs no TER! Thanks for the hint @InvestmentPapa justetf.com shows this wrong.



Addendum 2: The backtest is with annual rebalancing, which can be difficult with physical B&H. Thanks for the hint.@DonkeyInvestor But if you save anyway, you should be able to solve this easily. One backtest without rebalancing and one with a savings plan can be done quickly by anyone with two clicks.


Link to the backtest:

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-asset-class-allocation?s=y&mode=1&timePeriod=4&startYear=1973&firstMonth=1&endYear=2023&lastMonth=12&calendarAligned=true&includeYTD=false&initialAmount=10000&annualOperation=0&annualAdjustment=0&inflationAdjusted=true&annualPercentage=0.0&frequency=4&rebalanceType=1&absoluteDeviation=5.0&relativeDeviation=25.0&leverageType=0&leverageRatio=0.0&debtAmount=0&debtInterest=0.0&maintenanceMargin=25.0&leveragedBenchmark=false&portfolioNames=false&portfolioName1=Portfolio+1&portfolioName2=Portfolio+2&portfolioName3=Portfolio+3&asset1=TotalStockMarket&allocation1_1=100&allocation1_2=50&asset2=IntermediateTreasury&allocation2_2=25&asset3=Gold&allocation3_2=25&allocation3_3=100

attachment
48
46 Comments

profile image
1. interesting and nice that you also deal with the topic and thus one of my thematic priorities at getquin. Question about this: Are you also active in the industry and thus a branch colleague of mine? 2. good if you want to boost the "discussion", which I incidentally do not perceive so blatant and vehement in my previous contributions (clear, classic pros and cons, but always "normal"). There can be simply no "class warfare" around the right or wrong, because each investment strategy is individual. 3. What triggers me very much: Gold is not a stone, but, as you put it correctly in the same paragraph: A metal. A precious metal. 4. Gold is very productive. Just because relatively little is used in industry relative to the global share, gold is not "useless". It is simply not needed in mass (unlike the rest of silver and the reasons of the price deviations and such things I have already addressed in a special post), but relatively small but important quantities are enough in pretty much all everyday objects that surround us. But ok... I don't want to be petty. 5. I doubt that there will be a fundamental and general gold ban in the next years / decades. 6. One could mention that the backtest is in US dollars. On the basis of Euro (finally our main means of payment) one comes again on other values. 7. as the donkey said, the here average performance of the respective backtests presupposes a constant rebalancing. Especially with gold in physical form, however, sometimes more difficult to implement. 8. I find the admixture ratio simply too large. In principle, it is so that of course gold at 25-30% very much "stability" "can" give. However, for most people here (age U30-U40) it should be simply too much and too yield-reducing. Therefore, I "advise" (just like many asset managers) "only" a share of about 10%. 9. Attention to generalizations about gold as "money". This only applies to gold which is or was a means of payment (from 1800 on). This should apply to most, but not the possibility that with newer collector coins, which possibly exceeds 80% of the gold value on the open market). 10. who invests 30% of its fortune in gold, which makes at 100.000€, buys 30.000€ in gold. This purchase is by no means anonymous and is subject to the GWG. And please don't start the discussion now that you can rattle off various dealers... there we are clearly in a violation of laws. And at the latest with the sale you have "a" problem, since just strengthened also the fact becomes generally accepted that gold sales of private are already seized starting from 0€, as well as a proof over the origin is necessary. 11. Why please "recommend" you factually XETRA gold? Only because the spread to the MK seems to be lower? Please inform yourself about the annual fees (to be paid every month). Especially with the amount of gold, which you are basing here, a not to be neglected order of magnitude. With physical gold, please use at best the most obvious property paper gold to physical gold, namely as far as running costs are concerned: 0€ and thus EUWAX2. 12. Who physical gold is not insured (here, too, the anonymous purchase is then difficult) and it in quantities over zb. 50k€, is additionally blessed in the worst case with total loss... difficult topic. 13. Interesting sidefact: In Corona times gold which was called in physical form at XETRA and EUWAX by the producers had priority before the delivery to other traders ;-). Otherwise, I am looking forward to the exchange on the topic... currently I am working again on an Insight or a topic from the area, which as a contribution to the exchange of views suggested by you certainly contributes again... On the whole: Thanks for the contribution. as an addition, I want to make surreptitious advertising for my contributions on the subject of precious metals on getquin. 😅 To be found in the link tree of my profile: https://linktr.ee/investmentpapa
13
profile image
@InvestmentPapa First of all, thank you for your detailed answer and the numerous tips. They are almost a contribution in themselves. 😅 I will gradually go into the points. Your hint about EuwaxII Gold I have incorporated. At justetf, the and XetraGold are in there with 0TER. It was not a recommendation, just a representative example. I did not want to mention certificates, but the classics with physical delivery option.
profile image
@InvestmentPapa
It is worth mentioning that Euwax Gold ll does have costs, namely in the form of a higher discrepancy between the ask price and the value price (spread). It can be said: Xetra-Gold (as ETC) is more suitable for a short-term investment, while Euwax Gold ll (physical) is mainly for the long-term investor.
1
profile image
@General_T_Regnery I'm talking explicitly about the running costs. The spread premium is almost negligible. What does short-term investment mean? At XETRA there can be no short term investment u1 year, because otherwise there will be additional tax. Gold is basically not a short term investment, unless you trade PUT-CALL options, but then you are out of XETRA and EUWAX anyway ;-) So the deviation at EUWAX from the MK is to be seen as at the local dealer. This is a one-time markup, not a permanent one.
2
profile image
@InvestmentPapa
Is the spread identical for both a precious metals branch and Euwax? And what about your job? Do you also deal with Xetra and Euwax? Or is it completely different?
profile image
@InvestmentPapa Now to your points: to 1: No, I'm not in the business. I kind of don't like them either, sorry. to 2: The discussion may not be heated - after all, we're not in a blowoff period. But it is very emotional. Rational arguments rarely seem to hold water. I wanted to address that a little bit. to 3: I am already aware that gold is not a stone. It was an exaggerated polemic against gold, which emphasizes the uselessness. to 4: No, gold is a dead thing (like a stone!). Productive is the one who does something with it. And even if a small fraction is used industrially, gold is substitutable in most cases. That's not quite the case with silver. I find it fascinating that it is precisely the uselessness of gold that makes it an excellent store of value. Cigarettes and liquor just get used up. re 5: What our state can do with gold owners once it is short of cash is open to speculation. My bet is that at some point there could be legal rules that make private gold ownership less interesting. For example, a next step could be the introduction of sales/value added tax on physical gold purchases. And then the gold market in Germany is broken. to 6: Yes, the backtest is in dollars. But over the years, in my experience, it always evens out. If gold rises 500% and 15% of that is due to currency fluctuations, you can neglect that. Privately, however, I also look at the euro rate. to 7: If you use gold as a serious portfolio diversifier, I would choose the mix of physical and paper. to 8: The point is interesting! Why is 25% gold too much? After all, the backtests show that this does not reduce returns, but mainly reduces risk. Also, the tests show that 10% gold is next to nothing. I would like to hear more from you on this: why do you and your colleagues recommend a gold share that goes against the facts?
profile image
@InvestmentPapa Are Xetra Gold and Euwax 2 the only ETCs that are tax-free after one year? Or does this also apply to others?
profile image
@theflyingsquirrel Another product would be $SGBS However, the follow-up costs (if delivery is required) should be taken into account here! Especially in comparison to $EWG2, the documentation here is very "vague" and imprecise. Wisdom probably doesn't want you to deliver at all... (supply on demand). For this reason alone, I would use the relatively simple products (named by you) for the sake of simplicity and the certainty of uncomplicated recognition of tax exemption vis-à-vis the authorities.
2
profile image
Good post. Interestingly, as a proponent of gold, you have similar arguments as I do as a critic. Only with partly different interpretation. Similar, except for the backtest, with which you almost convinced me to invest in gold. But also only almost. You chose 1973 as the starting date. At that time, private ownership of gold was banned in the U.S., which was then lifted, resulting in unusually high volatility and non-representative returns in the years that followed. If you start the backtest in 1975, the return decreases. Of course, it still helps to bring stability into the portfolio and at the same time to lower the yield just a little 👍. Possibly an alternative for @DividendenWaschbaer to its high dividend assets 😁 And please also point out that the results of the backtest require an annual rebalancing. For the physical buy & hold fraction, the results are different again.
4
profile image
@DonkeyInvestor Thanks for your tips! I agree with you that the start date matters a lot in backtesting. But. I chose 1973, a year exactly 50 years ago. Both 1971 (earliest year) and your suggestion 1975 would have needed much better returns! Gold has fallen namely after the release in USA first properly, so 40%. With the rebalancing with the physical B&H you have hit a point which I had not considered so at all. You are right, of course, I must point out. But! The normal case is that one saves the depot, thus regularly pays in. So rebalancing by adjusting the purchase size should not be a problem. However, I admit then again that I would have had to make the backtest also with savings plan. But then that would probably have been too complex for a catchy post. 😅
1
profile image
@Epi really? For me, the backtest shows a lower return from 1975 onwards 🧐🤔!? You can certainly rebalance by adjusting the savings rate. However, not everyone saves regularly and from a certain portfolio size, it takes a very, very long time via a savings plan.
profile image
@DonkeyInvestor Jup, 75 9.56% vs. 73 9.46%.
profile image
@DonkeyInvestor Yes, from a certain portfolio size, a division into physical and paper probably makes sense. So e.g. a tube of coins (20x2000€) and the rest as EuwaxII. That can then be easily managed.
profile image
@Epi in your post the returns were still above 10% and above a pure US Stock Depot
profile image
@DonkeyInvestor In the linked backtest, if you simply change the start time from 1973 to 1975, the return goes up. What did you change?
profile image
I only save gold on the side when I see a small fancy coin or have the necessary change left over for a bar. Silver as well. The precious metals I prefer to have in hand. However, I do not buy when just is cheap, but when I like the motifs :) Thanks for the contribution
1
profile image
@Pogorausch That sounds pretty good. After reading the article, you might consider whether it would make sense to invest more systematically in gold. In my opinion, the Austrians have the most beautiful motifs, followed by Australia and Canada.
profile image
@Epi right. Where I'm currently rather on the silver discs from any video game characters :D
1
profile image
@Pogorausch This is the aesthetic aspect of saving precious metals. Not to be underestimated!
First of all, cool contribution, I see the same as you, that with gold emotions always resonate, similar to the discussion as around real estate. For most people there seems to be only black or white and emotions quickly boil up. But I have to disagree with you on one thing: Storage costs. Sure, for a coin or two I agree with you. But if you have seriously so 25% of your someday hopefully large fortune in gold you can not get around storage costs. Just for security and insurance purposes. Either you buy a safe, or put it in a safe deposit box. I, at least, have neither and would have to buy it separately for gold storage.
1
profile image
@FirstPancake Thanks for your nice feedback! The storage is of course an individual story, which you should not share with anyone (except partner), not even with your insurance. To get around the problem with larger deposits, I would suggest a mixed solution: up to amount X (e.g. 3 months' salary) coins, above that EuwaxII gold.
@Epi uff, storing a lot of physical gold uninsured is beyond me. No matter if at home or in a safe deposit box. Why should I do that, it is extremely risky.
profile image
@FirstPancake As I said, a mix could solve the problem. There are home insurance policies that insure up to 70k against burglary for 100€pa. So as much physical as you feel comfortable with, the rest in Euwax. What speaks against it?
@Epi if it is insured nothing. The question is still after the clauses in the insurance. I only know that they require a safe, but that may have changed in the meantime. But may have changed in the meantime. I'm also not at all against gold, have that also as an ETC to 5% in the portfolio.
profile image
Cool article, was very easy to read. The sober view is good for a change. @ccf 🚀
1
profile image
@Fabzy Danke!
profile image
One thing bothers me: "Gold is a [...] stone." I'm not a geologist, but gold as a stone to call, displeases a part of me tremendously 🤔 Otherwise but super the contribution!
1
profile image
@joshuamts It was also a polemical counter-argument, which is supposed to emphasize the uselessness, but which I would not support at all.
profile image
@Epi That was also clear to me, is me just as such only ebendrum directly in the eye fallen
1
profile image
The following should be added to the point "Advantages of physical gold": In Germany, you can buy gold up to 1,999.99 euros anonymously. Only from a sum of 2,000 euros traders have to record your personal data. Some people would be far above the mentioned 25-30% weighting in the portfolio. In a 60k portfolio, that would be 15-18k in gold. Then you would have to make 10 individual purchases <2k.
1
profile image
@six Yes, I didn't address the anonymous purchase limit thing. I probably should have. But I don't think it's a big deal. If you are clean and can prove the origin of the money if needed, then the state just has your address. But what is he supposed to do with it? He knows that you bought gold. If he wants the gold, you can always say that you gave it away or forgot where it is. This anonymity remains. And the state knows that, too.
profile image
$EWG2 Euwax Gold, a product of the Stuttgart Stock Exchange 👍🏽 Jaja we Swabians, even save on running costs 😅 In addition, you can have the gold from a certain amount in selected denomination delivered home, was believed even free of charge 🤔
1
profile image
Good contribution! Small correction to the paper gold: There are now some other ETCs which are tax-free because the gold can be delivered. These are complementary to Xetra Gold and Euwax Gold II: -The Royal Mint Responsibly Sourced Physical Gold ETC -WisdomTree Physical Swiss Gold -WisdomTree Gold Bullion Securities -WisdomTree Core Physical Gold ETC
1
profile image
@Akandivizi Oh, thank you. I didn't know that at all. Which one would you recommend?
profile image
@Epi I suspect the Core or Swiss from WisdomTree, both good and cheap.
2
@Akandivizi There are ETC with phys. delivery and some without. https://extraetf.com/de/wissen/besteuerung-von-gold-etc
1
"justetf.com is displaying this incorrectly." - What is being displayed incorrectly?
Deleted User
2Yr
Comment was deleted
profile image
@D-Duck Yes, but that was more of a coincidence.
View one more answer
Deleted User
8Mon
Comment was deleted
profile image
@AfterBurner Thank you. The article was written a while ago. I would take a more differentiated view of a few things today.
I would no longer say a blanket 25% share of gold, because it depends a lot on the other asset classes in the portfolio. 8% gold may well be enough, even if this probably doesn't apply to you. I would also recommend gold if the investor is interested in vola management. After all, the return on deposits does not increase with gold. On the other hand, portfolio volatility can also be managed very well using other methods, so that gold is only one of several options. Whether it is the best option depends on various factors.

But 20-25% gold is never wrong.
Deleted User
8Mon
Comment was deleted
profile image
@AfterBurner Yes, if you are only interested in returns on the side, then you can also look at one of the highly diversified low volatility portfolios. Google Meb Faber GAA. There's a great comparison of portfolio concepts.
View one more answer
Deleted User
2Yr
Comment was deleted
Show answer
Join the conversation