2Yr·

From e-fan to e-hater: Why I criticize Germany's hype about e-mobility #tesla
#emobilität
#etfs
#pepsi


Hello everyone,


today we will talk about e-mobility according to my vote. A topic that interests many, especially against the background of buying an e-car, but also regularly divides minds away from desired and undesired opinions.


Before we start here as always my Disclaimer:

Disclaimer: This is not investment advice. It is also not a solicitation to buy and/or sell financial products. I only describe my opinion here. You have your own responsibility towards your investments. Therefore no liability.


Since it is already clear to me that the topic might require a second part, I will first refer to general advantages and disadvantages of e-mobility, make profitability calculations for e-cars on a private car basis and finally make a first rough conclusion, how and why I have which opinion about plug-in cars.


I'll leave my personal beliefs out of this part a bit and only include them more towards the end. It is rather to be understood as opinion instead of opinion making.


So that we all start from the same page, I'll divide my analysis as follows:


PART 1 - E-cars an Exciting Topic

1. e-mobility from the point of view of an ex-fan - definitions, experiences and examples.


PART 2 - My opinion on E-cars: Unprofitable, inferior and still the winner - why E-cars would remain irrelevant without the hype tomorrow.

3. transport policy out of the ivory tower: why other countries use a mobility mix with among others biodiesel, fuel cells and hydrogen


1. e-mobility under power - Does it live up to the German government's hype?


I still remember very well my first encounter with the topic of e-mobility. It was about 22 years ago....


But according to your profile you are only 30 now? How does that work?


Basically it's quite simple: Because of my hobby of RC cars. I've always enjoyed racing small remote controlled cars, winning small prizes and outshining the RC cars of other drivers in terms of looks and racing techniques. My fascination for it I noticed after one gave me a first relatively slow RC car for children. It only drove a maximum of 20 kilometers per hour, but it was just suitable for my age group to develop a first understanding of a non-gasoline powered remote controlled car (cf. (1), (2)).


Only with higher age, here thus with approx. 13/14 I deepened this hobby. I often took part in smaller competitions among friends, dealt with the basics of driving physics and yes - had to deal with electrical engineering. As some of you will know, there are different types of cars in RC racing, which I perceive to minimize in variation as I get older: At some point there are mainly "racing cars" instead of monster trucks and co. (cf. (2)).


What does this have to do with e-mobility?


Very much. According to (3), almost all non-professional RC cars are electric cars based on batteries or accumulators. Combustion cars are considered to be very powerful, but also professional and noisy and therefore not recommended for children (see (3)). In general, electric RC cars are considered to be "clean to drive" or easy to handle - but on average they achieve significantly shorter driving times than verbena cars (see (4)).


One can drive approximately 20 minutes with a battery of 4,000 milliamps. For some, that is enough. What happens afterwards?


Correct: Recharge. For a whole hour. Only then can it be ensured that the car is fully charged and has not achieved battery damage due to incorrect charging (cf. ibid.).


And the verbs?


The great strength of the internal combustion engine is that it can be refueled in a matter of seconds or minutes and then be on the road again. With a neatly realistic engine noise that also assumes a protective function (see (4)).


It can often be observed that the step to more regular driving is more likely to be taken with the combustion engine. One of the leading reasons is the power and distance advantage as well as the reversal of the "advantage" of e-motors (see (4), (5)).


The what?


Reversing the advantage of e-motors is quite simple: Easy handling is a nice term for a completely different concept: Lack of customizing


If I can only change wheels, suspension, certain bodywork, etc., then I am limited in terms of the core of my car: The Engine tuning.

Sources (6) and (7) show exemplary fuels for combustion engines and...


Do you notice anything?


For about 6 paragraphs now, I've been deleting the "RC" and talking about drive types in general.

Why? Because the advantages and disadvantages of e-mobility can be modeled almost perfectly on the smaller brothers and sisters in spirit of the Honda-E, Tesla Model 3 etc. Have you noticed? The pros and cons are close.

Source (7) is more inclined towards e-mobility and is one of the articles that is quite positive about tuning e-drives. However, even this author cannot avoid naming the lack of a sense of achievement after tuning. The e-motor just sounds the same - nothing has changed in the engine noise and the e-car takes over the shifting anyway. Then spend several thousand euros for it (see (7))?


The example of tuning shows that e-mobility disenfranchises the driver and deprives him of a full driving experience.


But how exactly does the e-car work?

Essentially, there are various battery types within the e-business - some still experimental, some already conventional. What they all have in common is that their heart is not an engine powered by fossil energy, but instead a high-voltage battery forms the counterpart to gasoline, diesel and co. as energy storage. Current models have the following capacities (see (8). (9)):

- AUDI E-Tron 71 / 95 kWh with stated 338-437 Km

- Hyundai Kona 39.2 / 64 kWh with stated 305-484 Km

- Tesla Model 3 55 / 75 kWh with stated 430-567 Km


Yes but their motors seem to have an acceptable range for a second car?


I used a very simple trick for the three models, which some salespeople also like to use: Average times, ethical pseudo-argumentation and concealing price and environmental factors.

Being nice, I have chosen 3 very noble and highly respected brands to show you the problem of e-mobility in a more striking way. The following statements are made only on the example of the AUDI, but are also applicable in parts to other E-cars.


Let's start with the AUDI e-tron 50 quattro. According to (10), it is currently the cheapest E-tron from AUDI. It costs 69,100€, has a curb weight between 2,445 kg - 2,695 kg and comes with an enormous engine power of 313 hp (230 kW) with a torque of 540 Newton meters (see (10), (11)).


Wow, that seems like a lot - why does that leave you cold?


Imagine paying almost 70,000€ to be able to drive a maximum of 200 kilometers per hour with a powertrain that is in the best case 437 kilometers of range. With the experience that the sportiness will find its abrupt end early and a vacation from a certain distance > 300 km tends to foresee an e-charging station search (cf. ibid.).


How can I approximate how long the e-car will run?


AUDI, for example, uses the WLTP procedure. WLTP stands for "Worldwide Harmonised Light-Duty Vehicles Test Procedure". A somewhat unwieldy title for a globally uniform range test for lightweight commercial vehicles (cf. (12), (13)).


It is performed on a test rig for 30 minutes and simulates a distance of 23 kilometers with four different speed ranges:


  • Up to 60 kilometers per hour
  • Up to 80 kilometers per hour
  • Up to 100 kilometers per hour
  • More than 130 kilometers per hour


During these intervals, an attempt is made to simulate realistic driving: This means that the driver accelerates and brakes within these intervals, thus stressing the acceleration, consumption and abrasion of the car. On average, the car drives 47 km/h for this test and also has to cope with a temperature of 23 degrees Celsius.


Why is this important?


One of the factors dominated by e-cars in particular is the battery management system. In addition to checking the "fill level" of the battery, it also performs safety functions in the form of temperature control of the battery cells. This should be between 20 and 40 degrees Celsius. In this interval, the electrochemical processes can function best (cf. (14)). The above-mentioned test of 23 degrees is thus perfectly within the "feel-good" interval of the e-motor (cf. (12), (13)).


But is this also realistic for consumption?


If we look at the German weather data for 2022, we quickly notice that only in August was the temperature above 20 degrees Celsius on average. Specifically, it was 20.3 degrees Celsius in August. Consequently, all other months reached temperatures, some of which were just over 10% of the lower range limit of the comfort interval. As an example, we refer to December 2021 to May 2022, where temperatures averaged in a channel between 2.6 degrees Celsius to 14.4 degrees Celsius in May (cf. (15)).


So what?


The weather data already shows that for 11 out of 12 months and thus in 91.67% of the annual months, the test procedure has set a base temperature value that is too high. From this, we can conclude that the e-car has to expend significantly more energy during a cold start in order to maintain an on-board temperature, among other things (cf. ibid.).


Every car driver, whether E or gasoline/diesel, will know that a cold start usually results in a multiple of fuel consumption. It is not uncommon to reach a multiple of the consumption in the display. According to (16), this value is often 1.5 to 2 times higher and can be even higher in winter (see (16)).


This is not a new problem with electric cars and is described in numerous forums. Especially for this test, there is a test called GREEN NCAP, which is also conducted on a test bench like the WLTP and simulates 14 degrees Celsius and -7 degrees Celsius (see (17)).


The Hyundai Kona Electric mentioned above achieves an additional consumption of 46% at -7 degrees Celsius - IF the consumption level of 14 degrees Celsius is taken as a basis. However, as we have just noticed. The comfortable temperature of the battery is 20 to 40 degrees Celsius - but the WLTP test of (18) has been performed at 23 degrees as described. Thus, the gap from these optimal values to the 14 degrees Celsius and then to the -7 degrees Celsius only increases and shows the distortion of the range problem (cf. ibid., (18)).


Thus, the above-mentioned optimum ranges will most likely never be reached in practical use.


How can we calculate how the values of (17) and (18) will relate to each other?


We already know from the source that the range of the Hyundai Kona shrinks from 305-484 kilometers to 215 kilometers IF we are even 6 degrees Celsius below the minimum limit of 20 degrees Celsius. So at 14 degrees Celsius, the car already loses more than a third of its range: we are only at 65.57% performance of the battery (see (17), (18)).


What happens when we cool down to - 7 degrees Celsius?


It really won't be pretty now. Cooling down to this winter temperature is accompanied by 147 kilometers of range. So, according to the source, we lose 32% performance compared to the 14 degrees Celsius and are now additionally kicked in the butt, since we only compared chain values.


Chains...what?


We just talked about more than a third, then another 32 percent...but what does that really mean for the stated range values and me as a driver?

Let's compare the stated 305 to 484 kilometers of the Hyundai Kona with the calculated values. Let's add a time line to generate the average ranges per month according to (15), (17) and (18). For this, we assume that the winter months of November, December, January and February are closer to -7° in terms of consumption than to the fall temperatures.

For an average driver of an e-car with equally average temperatures, the following range table now results (cf. ibid.):


  • January: T(January) e T(Winter) i.e. 147 km - 215 km.

  • February: T(February) e T(Winter) so 147 Km - 215 Km

  • March: T(March) e T(Fall) so 215 Km max.

  • April: T(April) e T(Autumn) so 215 Km max.

  • May: T(April) e T(summer) so 215 Km - 484 Km.

  • June: T(April) e T(summer) so 215 Km - 484 Km.

  • July: T(April) e T(summer) so 215 Km - 484 Km

  • August: T(April) e T(summer) so 215 Km - 484 Km

  • September: T(September) e T(Fall) so 215 Km max.

  • October: T(October) e T(Autumn) so 215 Km max.

  • November: T(November) e T(Winter) so 147 Km - 215 Km.

  • December: T(December) e T(Winter) so 147 Km - 215 Km.


I was extra nice and defined the interval for the summer months according to the manufacturer's specifications.


What does that tell us?


We are buying a car that is highly sensitive to temperature in a country whose climatic conditions are mostly unfavorable to the type of drive. In addition, the average price of electric cars is significantly higher than that of combustion engines. A simple example illustrates this even at the same manufacturer level.

While the Hyundai Kona described above costs €36,400 in the cheapest configuration and with a weaker engine performance profile and battery, the Hyundai Kona Diesel costs €26,300 at a similar configuration level (see (19), (20)).


Why is this explosive?


The Kona diesel consumes 4.9L per 100 km with a 50 liter tank. That is:

50L / 4.9L = 10.20-factor.

The Kona electric is at:

14.7 kWh / 100 Km so 39 kWh / 14.7 kWh = 2.65-factor.

So we see that the input-output ratio of the e-car cannot keep up with an ordinary diesel (cf. (21), (22)).


What should this input-output ratio tell us?


By means of input-output calculation we all judge our decisions every day. Do I buy the sushi for 30€ or do I rather make it myself? Do I fire up the grill or go to the Greek restaurant?


Both considerations are based on the focus on the fulfillment of needs. The input-output ratio shown already indicates that the line efficiency of the diesel is 3.85 times (=10.2/2.65) greater than that of the e-car.


What is the point of your relatively complex calculation?


Plenty. The automotive industry is already noticing that the trend toward electric driving may be "going under". Inflation, the elimination of an e-car premium, and delivery times that eliminate the joy of a new electric car are doing the rest.

An example of this is Ms. Jaskula, the Chief Human Resources Officer of ZF Friedrichshafen, the world's third-largest automotive supplier, who already expects 11 million e-cars (see (22), (23)).


Sounds great, doesn't it?


No. That's falling short of the target of around 39%. The German government had planned for 15 million e-cars by 2030. In the worst case, this target will not be reached either. That would be a drop of approx. 27% compared to the target. Not a good outlook for e-mobility in Germany (cf. ibid.).


But where does this come from?


Each of us can notice it every day - as soon as the letter from the electricity supplier arrives, a queasy feeling arises: The budget billing is to be increased. While in 2012 the average electricity bill of a 3-person household in Germany was still about 75€, this has now reached about 117€ in 2022. This represents an increase of 56% and leaves little scope for compensation elsewhere on the consumer side, especially in the inflation-stricken middle classes (see (24), (25)).


If we also look at the average kWh prices for commercial and industrial customers, the supply side has also had to increase substantially. Industrial customers in particular were still paying 15.78 cents/kWh in 2012. Today, that adds up to 22.51 cents/kWh. This also corresponds to an increase of 42.65% (see (24), (25)).


The average distance a commuter in Germany has to travel is 16.91 kilometers each way, so a total of 16.91 kilometers * 2 (outward + return) = 33.82 kilometers in total. In Germany 2023 we will have 250 working days, where I assume 30 vacation days EXPLICITLY NOT using the e-car. I do this to keep the comparison reasonably fair (cf. (26), (27), (28)).


So let's do the math: How much does the diesel cost me compared to the e-car?

We calculate the annual mileage: 33.82*220 =7,440.4 kilometers in 2023.

For this I refuel the diesel: approx. 8 times, because 7,440.4 / (10.2*100) = 7.29 (Rounded: 8 times)


What does this currently cost me? We approximate the diesel price for this using the average value method from 2022, which is EXTREMELY fair on my part, because 2022 was a year of very high diesel prices in my opinion. Source (28) testifies this especially graphically (cf. (28)).


The relevant diesel price to this is 1.811€ per diesel liter. So we get fuel costs of: 8*50*1,811€/L = 724,40€ for mobility the whole year. The following statements refer to (29), (30), (31), among others:



What is the cost to me of refueling more often and the "good" feeling of the e-car?


For this, we calculate simplified with the 200 kilometers from the above analysis. This is also very nice in light of my weather impact comment. We get:

7,440.4 km / 200 = 37.202 (rounded 38) charging events.


What could this cost me?


We calculate: 38 charging processes * 39 kWh capacity * 48 cents/kWh at the charging station and arrive at: 711,36€ for the Stromer. If we offset with the diesel we come to:

724,40€ - 711,36€ = 13,04€

In this scenario, we "save" 13.04€ if we use the Stromer.


Is this a good or bad value?


For a long time, calculations like these were the reason why I was one of the first people in my circle of acquaintances to come out in favor of e-mobility. Yes, that's right: Like many others, I found it fascinating that you can now drive "big RC cars." Analog their advantages as well as disadvantages. Unfortunately, I quickly realized that these calculations only work out if one ignores the essential shortcomings of e-mobility.


I am referring primarily to employees below the middle class for whom these cars would never be affordable and are also only conceivable as company cars in cases of short distance, charging station supply and not frequent use as a second car.

Let's also calculate the acquisition costs:

36,400€ (e-car) - 26,300€ (diesel) = 10,100€.


Yes but premium? So environment and so?


Medium term: Nix to less premium. For 2023, the premium is supposed to be 4,500€ - after having been 6,000€ so far. This goes hand in hand with my comments on inflation, the interview with Ms. Jaskula from ZF Friedrichshafen and the ever decreasing "tank difference" in favor of e-mobility. According to (31), the e-premium is to be further reduced from 2024.


What does this mean?


Let's calculate that too: 10.100€ - 4.500€ premium = 5.600€ the Diesel is possibly cheaper


When would we have that with STABLE ELECTRIC and DIESEL PRICE with the E-car out?


If we save 13,04€ per tank year, one notices the problem nevertheless very fast: Late.


5,600€ / 13.04€ annual fuel savings = 429.47 years.

No I am not joking. So we can rather not make up the difference without promotion via tank savings. The shift to e-mobility seems to be faltering due to the breakaway of the artificial push of e-cars by the federal government.


What about insurance, repairs, inspections, etc.?


A very old argument of mine for e-mobility picks up on exactly that. While the e-car doesn't need oil changes or emissions inspections, wear parts are less likely to be affected by recuperation. As a result, e-cars have to go to the workshop for maintenance less often on average (see (32), (33)).


BUT: There is a trap in this block around service, maintenance and repair. It is: accident. Allianz has commissioned a wide-ranging study on this and found out that a 10% surcharge after accidents is the rule for e-cars. It is therefore more expensive to repair an e-car after an accident than a combustion engine (cf. ibid.).


Another very strong argument against current e-mobility results from these contexts: The residual value problem in case of acceptance uncertainty. Pepsi, for example, has already received its first e-trucks as tractors from Tesla - how much potential is still there in the market? Who will still buy these e-trucks or our 200-300 km cars, should the potential be sufficient?


What chance does e-mobility have in the commercial sector? Which for us private individuals? Can it be the solution that we all use a type of drive that is less efficient, less developed, more expensive to buy and no longer subsidized?


But before this goes completely beyond the scope of this article, let's save it for a possible part 2. There, in the part "Transport policy from the ivory tower: Why other countries use a mobility mix", I will not only shed light on the private sector, but also present the future of e-mobility at Pepsi.


What's your take on this? Are you Team E, Team Biodiesel/Hydrogen, or Team Internal Combustion?


I look forward to constructive comments 😊


To help you be prepared, feel free to watch my new Pepsi video 😊


https://youtu.be/vGCzY5DWDVs


SOURCES

(1) https://sportfanat.de/rc-car-racing-kindheitstraeume-werden-wahr/

(2) https://www.alza.de/spielzeug/so-wahlen-sie-ein-rc-auto-aus

(3) https://www.elternkompass.de/ratgeber/spielzeug/rc-spielzeug/ferngesteuertes-auto/

(4) https://www.trade4me.de/Blog/Technik-Tipp/Verbrenner-oder-Elektro-Car-Die-richtige-Wahl-bei-RC-Cars-Technik-Tipp

(5) https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article207428749/RC-Cars-Darauf-kommt-es-bei-ferngesteuerten-Spielzeugautos-an.html

(6) https://www.conrad.de/de/ratgeber/modellbau-modellbahn/treibstoff-fuer-modellmotoren.html

(7) https://efahrer.chip.de/news/elektroautos-lassen-sich-nicht-aufmotzen-tuner-macht-schluss-mit-dem-geruecht_106883

(8) https://emobil.swhl.de/aufbau-und-funktionsweise

(9) https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/kaufen/elektroauto-batterie-groesse/

(10) https://www.autoscout24.de/auto/audi/audi-e-tron/

(11) https://praxistipps.chip.de/elektroauto-pro-und-contra-argumente-zur-elektromobilitaet_113374

(12) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj80PeixcT8AhWTHOwKHVieCdgQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fedison.media%2Felektroautos%2Faudi-e-tron-mehr-power-mehr-speed-mehr-reichweite%2F25231719%2F&usg=AOvVaw2vjZv8YMd6psAP7uuyBK3f

(13) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi6q6D9xsT8AhVNPOwKHT3OCUkQFnoECBgQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.volkswagen.de%2Fde%2Fbesitzer-und-service%2Fueber-ihr-auto%2Fkundeninformationen%2Frechtliches%2Fwltp.html&usg=AOvVaw2VxuiSWcQ69xCOqV2jZMZB

(14) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDlvevycT8AhUdS_EDHciDCPwQFnoECA8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energieloesung.de%2Fmagazin%2Fsommer-sonne-e-auto-kann-ihrem-e-auto-die-hitze-schaden%2F&usg=AOvVaw0pS7r3dUsRyoWr66q86jMo

(15) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/5564/umfrage/monatliche-durchschnittstemperatur-in-deutschland/

(16) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj8osHby8T8AhU_wAIHHXUMAwUQFnoECAkQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.focus.de%2Fauto%2Fratgeber%2Fauto-abc%2Fauto-warum-verbraucht-ein-motor-beim-kaltstart-mehr-sprit_id_3573507.html&usg=AOvVaw3DjYDf2aTbqOcFo-nkUWkd

(17) https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/info/elektroauto-reichweite-winter/

(18) https://www.audi.de/de/brand/de/neuwagen/layer/wltp-lp/layer/nefz-wltp.html

(19) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiV-p791MT8AhUMy6QKHZrfCMQQFnoECBYQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobild.de%2Fartikel%2Fhyundai-kona-2017-11476797.html&usg=AOvVaw1i5FBSfEQdvOfoCri-k5v6

(20) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiGhsu71MT8AhWLxqQKHXX9CQ0QFnoECDMQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.adac.de%2Frund-ums-fahrzeug%2Fautokatalog%2Fmarken-modelle%2Fhyundai%2Fhyundai-kona-elektro%2F&usg=AOvVaw20ECL3xlWmVNfMYFF86mau

(21) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj9xfmP1sT8AhWd_rsIHSINBl0QFnoECAgQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mobile.de%2Fauto%2Fhyundai%2Fkona%2F2017%2Fsuv%2Fmodell%2Fdaten-fakten&usg=AOvVaw3V3JbPkVAyniLLTl4bs5X_

(22) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwip0a_a1sT8AhWkTeUKHagtBWwQFnoECBAQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hyundai.de%2Fmodelle%2Fkona-elektro%2F&usg=AOvVaw09cRxxmmY0gOp2X5XU9l4d

(23) https://efahrer.chip.de/news/energiekrise-und-inflation-top-manager-sehen-schwarz-fuer-e-autos_109945

(24) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154902/umfrage/strompreise-fuer-industrie-und-gewerbe-seit-2006/

(25) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/5670/umfrage/durchschnittliche-monatliche-stromrechnung-seit-1998/

(26) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiYxquq3MT8AhWM_qQKHeC9B5gQFnoECA0QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.postbank.de%2Fthemenwelten%2Fberuf-vorsorge%2Fartikel_immer-laengere-arbeitswege-fuer-pendler.html&usg=AOvVaw107eEoZJMB8gRfgjhIx7jh

(27) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjIqa3g3MT8AhUWt6QKHaurCrcQFnoECAgQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.schulferien.org%2FArbeitstage%2FArbeitstage_2023_Nordrhein_Westfalen.html&usg=AOvVaw0qHjNWLEo21Xg85EZv0cwG

(28) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj8rsHf3cT8AhVS4qQKHeZNDGUQFnoECAgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fde.statista.com%2Fstatistik%2Fdaten%2Fstudie%2F224105%2Fumfrage%2Fdurchschnittlicher-preis-fuer-diesel-kraftstoff%2F&usg=AOvVaw0253Hr0ClkBZ4ez9z54Qi5

(29) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjyhdSP38T8AhVEzqQKHYDID8QQFnoECAwQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobild.de%2Fartikel%2Fsteigende-strompreise-vorteil-elektroautos-zu-verbrennern-schwindet-dahin-21709975.html&usg=AOvVaw3Inyv9V_vvKMv9cfk_v__d

(30) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwihtdaM4sT8AhWP16QKHWjxDL8QFnoECAQQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.entega.de%2Fblog%2Felektroauto-verbrauch%2F&usg=AOvVaw2B1S3wsOuySZz2JgTbTVq0

(31) https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/kaufen/foerderung-elektroautos/

(32) https://www.autobild.de/artikel/elektroauto-vs.-verbrenner-kostenvergleich-15131047.html#-1480369008

(33) https://www.autobild.de/artikel/tesla-semi-lkw-zugmaschine-elektro-22317277.html



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@BASS-T well I can not agree with you unfortunately to the research regarding the Kona e, because I drive it myself since March 21 and currently already have just under 32tkm on the clock. and at the point where it was about the range also broke off with the reading🫣 Sorry for that there is unfortunately a 👎 Am clearly Team E, because hydrogen and E-fuels have a 4 times higher power consumption 🙈
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@RealRose It's okay, you can not always be of one opinion. I was also in Team E for a long time - from then on, I can also accept your perspective. I'd still be happy if you find the time to read the article again sometime 😊
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@BASS-T have skimmed the rest and it was unfortunately not better. your calculation does not work and you can not generalize this unfortunately. because as an e-car driver you inform yourself what the loading is concerned and what the cheapest tariff that fits his driving profile. you have this unfortunately all considered only from a theoretical point of view and that's the biggest mistake from my point of view. my average consumption is at 17.3 kWh at about 32tkm.
Range in summer about 460km and in winter at about 390km. Driving distance to the office about 65km over country road, small town and highway. Charging costs: Office 0 € thanks to the poor charging network in D can provide the employer free of charge to the employee. 2023 at home by socket 41 ct/kWh 2021 it was still 24ct 2022 it went unfortunately hard uphill In this sense best regards from the team E🥳
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@BASS-T porsche 911 with 15l/100km and 380 hp. that's awesome🔥
@RealRose Fail. You're drawing conclusions from your case for everyone. Quasi the opposite of what you accuse @BASS-T. Nice that with your charging station. It only itches your e-friends. The majority of drivers do not have such charging stations at the employer and you should know that if you think you have to enter into a discussion here. The article from @BASS-T is super written and the values given agree with the sources. Then to babble here The calculation is wrong is in itself low. Honestly: If you think you can do better, then write your own contributions. Unnecessary fanbase comment
@BASS-T You are too nice.
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@LInvesting and you too stupid 🤷🏻‍♂️
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@LInvesting why such a hostile mood here, can not you discuss something more objective? You behave like children
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Team E-Fuels 👌🏼 exciting contribution! I would be happy about a second and vll also third part 🚀 Electric has advantages but also (still?) Many disadvantages such as the batteries ... I am curious what the future brings 🔮
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@depotvonjonas Absolutely. Thanks for the feedback 😊
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@depotvonjonas I come from the recycling industry and can only say that lithium batteries from e scooters, bicycles, hybrid or fully electric cars are a pure plague. The recovery is difficult, the storage dangerous, as soon as there is damage even more dangerous. We have already had 2 fires at our place. Triggered by the smallest lithium batteries burn down tons of material. Large exporters had to cope with damages in the millions because bicycle batteries on ships set on fire. The requirements and regulations are currently all still very vague. I am curious what the time brings with it. End of the month I have a seminar where this topic is treated.
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@Felix12 exciting, maybe you want to write a post about it or also about the seminar ... would be totally interesting 🤔
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I can report about it when the seminar is over 👍🏼
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@Felix12 I would read it👍
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The seminar is on the 24th. I will write a timely post after that and link you 👌🏼
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@Felix12 top, thank you 😌
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@Felix12 the batteries of electric cars should not be disposed of in the long term. One of the big problems of the German energy supply is the storage of surplus electricity. In the future, the batteries, which mostly still have 60-80% capacity and are considered defective, are to serve as a storage solution.
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@Pepkolino but that is still not a final solution... at some point the batteries are not even good as storage for excess power I think 😬
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Yes, that's true. But quite a few years will pass until then. On average, such a battery should last a good 10 years, then he still has the said 60 - 80% and quite a few years ahead of him. What happens after that will be exciting, I'm curious about Felix's contribution.
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How can you use so many sources and then come to the wrong result? In addition, what is this input output factor. That says nothing more than the tank size....
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I have been driving an ID3 for 6 months and have not regretted it to this day. As in the comment of Sascha, I charge my car only at home, which is already a huge comfort. With the PV system and the GHG quota I have very low costs, also the tax is not applicable (with the Kona certainly 250 euros). I also think that for most e-car owners, the public charging station is just an exception. With the range, you can get along well. Many take that as an argument, but would have no concern with 99 out of 100 trips. If you do have to charge at a public charging station, it's relatively quick and doesn't take forever. I'm clearly in favor of electric cars and can only recommend that everyone test drive them for a week.
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@Pepkolino What is the 250€ for the Kona based on?
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Hyundai Kona Diesel tax
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@Pepkolino Ahso😉
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Unfortunately, this illustrates another problem. Without home ownership, the described case is not feasible. In addition, one quickly forgets the acquisition costs of photovoltaics and the resulting return on investment. A number of factors come together here: 1. home ownership (not everyone has the money) 2. photovoltaics (not everyone has the money) 3. additional price of the vehicle and the question of the used car market (not everyone has the money).
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A PV system pays for itself much faster with an electric car, which increases the return on investment. You also have acquisition costs with combustion. Not everyone owns their own home, right. The mix is perfect for me, because I have everything electric at home (heating, hot water). I pay 120 euros per month to the public utility and get 80 euros every month. Whether the electric car is worth it, everyone must calculate for themselves.
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As long as the electricity used is not E, E cars bring you less...
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@SharkAce 😂😂😂 E = Electric so what should the current be electric current... yes no shit
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@JKTaurus Electricity from renewable energy (E). With a little bit of thinking you could have thought of it yourself
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I find it rather difficult to limit the topic of mobility to one drive. I am not the biggest e-car fan and advocate, although I have daily contact with it. For city centers and homeowners, the e-car can make sense and is practical. For the tenant in a high-rise building with few charging stations rather less. The fact is, for daily use, the range is sufficient for the broad masses. Even in winter. For transport and longer distances, the diesel is simply madness with the highest payload. The payload for electric vehicles is extremely low, especially for trucks. I am personally more convinced of hydrogen because of the fast filling and the range. Emissions on site also do not take place. BUT, as long as H2 can not be produced climate neutral, the losses due to the compression up to 700bar and the production are simply insane and ineffective due to the efficiency over the entire chain. The same is true for natural gas, where emissions are of course primarily a problem. I also see e-fuels as having a future. Each type of drive simply has its justification and advantages, but also its disadvantages. Wanting to create a "beast of burden" is typically German😉 Time and the mix will tell. The elimination of premiums will show the acceptance of e-mobility. Looking at recycling is such a thing, there are concepts and processes. The coming years will show how recycling really takes place.
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@Wellenreiter It's just as German to say that you absolutely need a car. You can also do well without one.
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@0xBerndBuffet 🙈 But you can only say that if you live in the city.
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@0xBerndBuffet Yes, maybe in the city. I didn't need one in Munich, but I did outside. How do I know that? Experience probably. Another question, what does this have to do with my comment? But the positive thing about it, everyone can decide for themselves. Typically German, ever observed other countries
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@Wellenreiter Thanks for your opinion 😊
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@RealRose first of all, everyone chooses where to live. Why do you always have to deal with the last borderline case. 77 percent of people live in cities or metropolitan areas and only 15 percent in villages with fewer than 5,000 inhabitants. And for the few process who live in the countryside, it's perfectly ok to have a car. But with their free decision, they should then also not constantly whine around that it is an expensive affair.
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@Wellenreiter So with the climate ticket in Austria 🇦🇹 I know enough people who have at least eliminated the second car. And as I said, where you live is up to you. Own enrollment own consequences. Just the attitude that it is considered normal to have a car, I think you can find wrong and as a passionate Audi tt driver I can say that it increases the savings rate significantly and the high rents in Munich also compensated. times apart from the time wasted for his free decision to live somewhere where the infrastructure is not so good.
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@0xBerndBuffet ok, the second car. Completely different topic and has always no little in common with my post on the different drive types, but ok. Well of course it is the free decision where you live, exactly this was to move out to not have to live in the city. I even save time and money currently, due to living situation (closer to employer) as well as no expensive monthly pass. As you can see there are always two sides to the coin. Btw, to your 77% statement. Only 30% live in big cities, the remaining 43% are metropolitan areas, which includes me but with city has nothing more to do. Please stay truthful. So we are not talking about a minority that does not live in cities. Here are three quick links. So everyone can look at the numbers themselves and calculate😊 https://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de/de/deutschland-auf-einen-blick/land-der-vielfalt https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Groß-_und_Mittelstädte_in_Deutschland https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1353/umfrage/einwohnerzahlen-der-grossstaedte-deutschlands/ But now back to the core of the post. Do you have anything to contribute regarding the different types of drive or only regarding vehicle avoidance? You're not wrong, of course, but it wasn't my debate😉
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@Wellenreiter well the point is whether drive type is now electronic or not plays no role in a society full of over consumption. But no matter must cut just everyone for himself, what he wants to drive. Fact is nevertheless I decide no matter what drive I want to drive, car starts with a and between it is a t as expensive and always to say in the country you have no other choice is nonsense. And in your 43% metropolitan areas gibts always ne reasonable connection even from petershausen and Augsburg come the people I know ehr with the öffis to work.
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@0xBerndBuffet I think you don't want to understand, vehicle avoidance was not my post. I wouldn't call it overconsumption either, or I'm not a person in that category. Short fact, I have never had a new car. Nice that you now write it yourself, everyone decides for themselves. I do not speak of all, In my case as I have now also described to you, the decision is simple. Please read clearly! In your case just different, is also ok and good so. A medal has two sides and mobility is individual. Then ask your acquaintances how great the commute with the S2 works. I can write you a book with signal, switch interference, etc. but does not matter😅. That is also my Sbahn. If there is now nothing more to the above topics, vllt to transport and co, I would close our exchange now. In this sense a nice We dir👍 and vorallem much fun in the mountains😊
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@Wellenreiter just like me with traffic jams around Munich and on German highways and just when it snows that is the also the other side of the coin. Fits.
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I think e-fuel, what Siemens Energy and Porsche are doing, has more future. Is an existing system and you get to the root of the problem -> the dirty fuel. Hydrogen also has a future, possibly in cars, but trucks, buses, etc. Think Plug Power also has a good future. Have also long considered whether I buy an e-car share, but there are so many and you can not decide. Have the money then put the All World ETF 😂
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@Joris Could pick up in a second one if necessary. Sounds interesting 🤔 No investment advice
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I don't think that e-fuels have a real chance on the passenger car market (except for niches like sports cars etc.). The extraction is too inefficient, apart from the combustion in the car. The production in Chile is also useless. It is nevertheless exciting to see if the proof of concept succeeds there. The quantities of conventional fuel used in Germany alone today have to be produced first. I think it will remain a luxury product for Porsche drivers who like engine noises (all other industries excluded).
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Will never come for passenger cars, just like hydrogen.
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@svenleowe Now we still have to bring Tesla in somehow, then it really pops here 😁
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@BASS-T I really don't understand how you come up with your abstruse calculation that E cars would be worse. Please do the same again with a Model 3 and BMW 3 series, but mind you, with the same equipment and performance.
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Strong contribution, which is very balanced. I'm not a fan of e-cars myself.
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@Thoranos Thank you 😊
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Thank you for your slightly different mathematical view of the situation 👍🏻
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@Hawgd Thanks😊 E-mobility is a hot topic. But exciting all the same.
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Great contribution👍 Not to be taken for granted. I'm not as critical of e as you are, but well argued. A lot of people here are just ranting because they can't bear the fact that their e's might soon be worth nothing when new batteries with more range finally arrive.

Don't worry about it. They have to accept your opinion 👍 @ccf
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@LInvesting Thank you ☺️
@LInvesting Hats off to you! I recognize coherent arguments. Some of the comments under this post completely contradict this. We'll see which form of drive will prevail.
So far, I'm also more of an e-sceptic.

Great post 👍 thanks and @ccf for the courage and the work
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@StocksElements Thank you very much 😊
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Ey really strong performance BUT I do not understand how you with so much knowledge, with so many sources you still come to the wrong result. It's such a pity, you could show so well that it makes sense (like Youtube: Dr. whatson - The truth about electric cars).
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actually, the inner-city area is the only one that really makes sense for me, and most routes are then more sensibly usable with public transport ... on long-distance routes, I rely on efuels (and invest in them via Porsche and siemens, even if Siemens Energy would probably be the most direct investment) https://app.getquin.com/activity/DmPHromeFO?lang=de&utm_source=sharing
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@Derebete Very interesting post! Thanks for the link.
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I think your contribution is well written. Perhaps many here see it as a "trigger point", as it does not seem so obvious that it is more an emotional decision towards the combustion engine based on personal experience. And yes, one must clearly agree with you. Those teething problems of battery capacity degradation still exist, so in some circumstances an internal combustion car may seem more efficient in winter. However, many established e-car manufacturers have managed this very well by alloying and insulating. I also consider the price structure in Germany to be completely off. But that's mainly because the tax burden on basic public supplies, like electricity, is already utopian, so there should be a bias about the future. No one knows yet what the actual longevity of the large-scale accumulators will be and how the circular economy will also address the problem. Physically, of course, the e-car has victory easily in its pocket because it represents the most direct form of energy use. I remain loyal to Team Science because I am not a clairvoyant and want to admire the competition of innovations. All this written while I am currently sitting in the electric TGV to Munich and will later change to the electric ICE of the Deutsche Bahn 😉
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