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Singulus
@Singulus
10Mes·

ETP or direct crypto exchange?

Would you stay with $BITC (-2,38%) because it's easier with the tax (because it goes through the broker with exemption order and certificates) or trade directly on a crypto exchange via Nexo or Binance?

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TheCashConcierge@TheCashConcierge
10Mes
Most people will probably advise you to use a crypto exchange.

I still stick with Trade Republic + Scalable in order to be able to take profits easily and not make any large transfers back and forth.

Since I can now transfer anywhere from Trade Republic, I will leave it that way for now.

Depending on how our policy on crypto profits etc. will be handled in the future, I may change this.
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Singulus@Singulus
10Mes
@Bullnbear Do you have a savings plan in place? I find Scalable's solution extremely elegant, you just have the premiums on the purchase price.
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Joris@Joris
10Mes
@Singulus I think even one of those at Scalable is tax-free even after a year. The one who physically deposits the Bitcoin.
I had to check again
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TheCashConcierge@TheCashConcierge
10Mes
@Singulus I would have to google now but Trade Republic is really the real coin, always + tax free after 1 year hold (my case - one time purchase). At scalable I had savings plans for summer 24 and I think that because it is an ETP, the tax is due immediately on sale & deducted automatically.
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Singulus@Singulus
10Mes
@Joris
- Each BITC Security is 100% physically backed by Bitcoin
- Unlike other providers, we never lend out the Bitcoins
backing your securities
- Investors have the option to redeem their securities directly
for bitcoins

But I haven't found anything about taxes yet (https://coinshares.com/de/etp/physical-bitcoin/).

Update: "For tax purposes, physically deposited crypto ETPs are treated as direct investments in cryptocurrencies. The prerequisite is that there is a delivery option - which is not the case for all crypto ETPs. Only the issuers ETC Group, Deutsche Digital Assets, VanEck and Coinshares offer such a delivery option for ETPs that track exactly one cryptocurrency. The basis for this is also the BMF letter dated 10.05.2022. For income tax purposes, they are therefore not treated as capital income, but as speculative gains." (https://extraetf.com/de/wissen/besteuerung-von-kryptowaehrungen#krypto-etps-mit-auslieferungsoption)
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TheCashConcierge@TheCashConcierge
10Mes
@Singulus according to chat gpt: - Taxes only arise on sale at a profit, there is no annual advance lump sum.
- As with shares or certificates, the profit on sale is subject to withholding tax (25% + solidarity surcharge
+ church tax).
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Joris@Joris
10Mes
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Singulus@Singulus
10Mes
@Bullnbear But this also means that although I buy the ETP via Scalable and have it in my custody account, I have to take care of the tax myself if I hold it for less than a year.

So the advantage of the broker here is only the "simple" purchase and the shared overview (if you have it in a custody account).
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Joris@Joris
10Mes
@Bullnbear that's what ChatGPT told me:

Which Bitcoin ETp is tax-free after one year?

In Germany, gains from the sale of cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin, are generally tax-free if they are realized after a holding period of more than one year. This also applies to Bitcoin ETPs (Exchange Traded Products), provided certain conditions are met.

Conditions for the tax exemption of a Bitcoin ETP:
1. physically collateralized: The bitcoin ETP must be physically collateralized, i.e. the provider actually holds the bitcoins in the background. This means that the ETP is treated as a direct investment in Bitcoin.
2. not a derivative: The ETP must not be classified as a derivative or forward transaction. Such financial products fall under other tax regulations where the tax exemption does not apply after one year.
3. private sales transactions: The ETP must fall within the scope of private sales transactions (Section 23 EStG). In this case, the tax exemption applies after a holding period of more than one year.

Known Bitcoin ETPs that can be tax-free:
- 21Shares Bitcoin ETP (ISIN: CH0454664001): Physically collateralized and tradable in Germany.
- VanEck Bitcoin ETN (ISIN: DE000A28M8D0): Physically collateralized and explicitly structured as a debt security.
- WisdomTree Bitcoin (ISIN: GB00BJYDH287): Physically backed and authorized in Germany.

Caution in special tax cases:
- If the Bitcoin ETP distributes interest or other income, this may be taxable.
- In the case of derivatives or synthetic ETPs (e.g. with swaps), the tax exemption does not apply after one year.
- The custodian bank may apply advance taxation, so the tax treatment should be checked in advance.

It is advisable to check the exact product conditions of the respective ETP before investing and to consult a tax advisor if you are unsure.
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kubernd@kubernetes
10Mes
@Joris $WBIT would have to be one without a delivery option, as far as I know, with the corresponding tax advantages and disadvantages.
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