13H
Maybe it’s also because Germany has the lowest number of working hours per year. Productivity aside, working fewer and fewer hours and taking more and more vacation time speaks for itself.
By comparison: in Switzerland, people still work 40+ hours and, in many professions, are entitled to 20 days of vacation per year under collective bargaining agreements—not 28, 30, or 35 days. Some professions still can only dream of 100% paid sick leave.
Other countries have taxes, too. I used to do a lot of business in Italy. Compared to there, Germany is a land of milk and honey. Just as an example. Official statistics aside.
By comparison: in Switzerland, people still work 40+ hours and, in many professions, are entitled to 20 days of vacation per year under collective bargaining agreements—not 28, 30, or 35 days. Some professions still can only dream of 100% paid sick leave.
Other countries have taxes, too. I used to do a lot of business in Italy. Compared to there, Germany is a land of milk and honey. Just as an example. Official statistics aside.
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@Olli68 I don't quite understand the reasoning. From a macroeconomic perspective, you're right. That's why we're losing growth. But as an employee, you’re entering into a contract—let’s say for 4,000 euros a month? When it comes to building your wealth, it doesn’t matter whether you work 160 hours a month or just 140 hours. The latter is actually better for you...
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13H
@Part_Time_Joe But you won’t earn as much with 140 hours. At my company, 183 hours a month at 100% is actually the norm. That used to be the case in Germany, too.
And it should be a simple calculation that you can’t build up the same level of wealth with 140 hours.
On top of that, there’s the vacation comparison: 20 days instead of 30 days.
When you go to the doctor, you have to pay out of pocket first (I think up to about 800 CHF) until health insurance kicks in. In Germany, people take to the streets over 10 euros per quarter.
And it should be a simple calculation that you can’t build up the same level of wealth with 140 hours.
On top of that, there’s the vacation comparison: 20 days instead of 30 days.
When you go to the doctor, you have to pay out of pocket first (I think up to about 800 CHF) until health insurance kicks in. In Germany, people take to the streets over 10 euros per quarter.
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@Olli68 For me, there are two key issues:
1) How much of your salary can you save: The only things that matter to me here are: What’s your take-home pay at the end of the month, and how much can you save? Regardless of the number of hours worked, etc.
2) Work ethic: This is an issue that can negatively impact a country’s economic performance in the long term and is linked to many factors. In the broadest sense, it comes down to whether work is still worth it—and that, of course, is something that must be assessed on an individual basis.
1) How much of your salary can you save: The only things that matter to me here are: What’s your take-home pay at the end of the month, and how much can you save? Regardless of the number of hours worked, etc.
2) Work ethic: This is an issue that can negatively impact a country’s economic performance in the long term and is linked to many factors. In the broadest sense, it comes down to whether work is still worth it—and that, of course, is something that must be assessed on an individual basis.
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13H
@Part_Time_Joe Then we have different views. That’s okay, though.
All I can tell you is this: I’ve worked in various countries throughout my life and run my own business as a self-employed person.
In most countries, the prevailing belief was that if I wanted to earn more, I had to work harder—or work better. Go the extra mile, so to speak.
In Germany, there’s a culture of entitlement. Earn as much as possible, work as little as possible, get as many perks as possible, and get as much as possible for free. That’s why the unions in Germany are so strong.
And I’m sorry to say that your thoughts reinforce my conviction.
Maybe things will have to get really bad in Germany before people realize that prosperity doesn’t come from working as little as possible and having as much free time as possible.
All I can tell you is this: I’ve worked in various countries throughout my life and run my own business as a self-employed person.
In most countries, the prevailing belief was that if I wanted to earn more, I had to work harder—or work better. Go the extra mile, so to speak.
In Germany, there’s a culture of entitlement. Earn as much as possible, work as little as possible, get as many perks as possible, and get as much as possible for free. That’s why the unions in Germany are so strong.
And I’m sorry to say that your thoughts reinforce my conviction.
Maybe things will have to get really bad in Germany before people realize that prosperity doesn’t come from working as little as possible and having as much free time as possible.
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•@Olli68 But you have to distinguish between the self-employed and employees! For the self-employed, it’s probably true that… more work = more money (at least there’s a positive correlation). For employees, however, this is only true to a very limited extent. I can tell you about my employer, for example. It doesn’t matter at all whether I work 40 hours or 60 hours. Overtime isn’t paid. It also has no impact on promotions. On top of that, pay raises only come with promotions (there’s no adjustment for inflation). Where’s the incentive on an individual level to do more if it’s not worth it? Quite the opposite. The incentive structure actually pushes you to do less when the purchasing power of your salary declines every year due to inflation and higher taxes.
Ultimately, it’s an incentive problem. I don’t think people in Germany are lazier than in other countries. But people adapt to the system. That’s why communism doesn’t work, after all. If I’m not rewarded for working extra hours, I simply won’t work those extra hours anymore.
Ultimately, it’s an incentive problem. I don’t think people in Germany are lazier than in other countries. But people adapt to the system. That’s why communism doesn’t work, after all. If I’m not rewarded for working extra hours, I simply won’t work those extra hours anymore.
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12H
@Part_Time_Joe I think we agree on that. But is it really the government’s fault that the free market no longer operates on the principle of merit, but increasingly on the principle of entitlement? In that case, it doesn’t even matter how high taxes are.
Think about whether it’s really necessary in Germany for some retirees to receive more than 3,500 euros in pension payments—which, of course, are largely financed by taxes. It’s a matter of personal responsibility. But then people will surely argue that those individuals always paid in a lot, etc.
And this runs through many areas in Germany. Taxes could be quite a bit lower.
Think about whether it’s really necessary in Germany for some retirees to receive more than 3,500 euros in pension payments—which, of course, are largely financed by taxes. It’s a matter of personal responsibility. But then people will surely argue that those individuals always paid in a lot, etc.
And this runs through many areas in Germany. Taxes could be quite a bit lower.
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•@Olli68 As long as the correlation holds (more work = more money), then yes. Then it (almost) doesn’t matter how high the taxes are—at least an extra or missing percentage point won’t make a difference.
I just don’t understand your point about pensions. Sure, there should be people who receive large pensions. The merit principle should apply there, too. Those who contribute a lot should also receive more. Above all, you can count these retirees on one hand. They’re certainly not the ones driving up costs (there are only 31,000 who receive more than 3,000 euros net).
I just don’t understand your point about pensions. Sure, there should be people who receive large pensions. The merit principle should apply there, too. Those who contribute a lot should also receive more. Above all, you can count these retirees on one hand. They’re certainly not the ones driving up costs (there are only 31,000 who receive more than 3,000 euros net).
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12H
@Part_Time_Joe Okay, so we’re really far apart on this. But I don’t really know how to explain it either. I believe you should deliver first, and then you’ll be rewarded. It’s just the principle of performance.
If I’m not rewarded (for my performance), the company isn’t right for me, and I’ll move on. That’s how I’ve done it throughout my career.
What you’re describing sounds more like an entitlement mentality. If I’m paid or rewarded accordingly, I’ll do more in return.
All I can tell you is that this works in Germany, but nowhere else.
If I’m not rewarded (for my performance), the company isn’t right for me, and I’ll move on. That’s how I’ve done it throughout my career.
What you’re describing sounds more like an entitlement mentality. If I’m paid or rewarded accordingly, I’ll do more in return.
All I can tell you is that this works in Germany, but nowhere else.
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@Olli68 Yeah, I think we have different opinions on this, but that’s okay! 😉 As for me, I enter into a contract with my employer. In exchange for X amount of work, I receive Y amount in salary. I want to be compensated for overtime. In my opinion, that’s more than fair. When you hire a contractor or someone like that to do something for you, they don’t do more than what was agreed upon. And for me, the relationship with my employer is exactly that—a kind of service contract.
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It’s not the most popular opinion, but I still find it incredibly easy to make money in Germany. Anyone who wants to get ahead here can do so—even in the low-wage sector.
Let’s just take the minimum wage as an example: next year, it’ll be about 1,800 EUR net.
A part-time job brings in about 633 EUR—but due to hourly limits, you can only make about 500. So that would be 2,300 net, and that’s the lower limit. Do the math with salaries after you finish your apprenticeship or college.
Now find an employer who has a lot of work and, if necessary, lets you split 36 hours over 4 days—for example, you could work on Friday in a part-time job.
In the restaurant industry, you can also have a main job (gross) plus a side job (net) and double the tips (net).
There are so many ways in Germany to make 2,500–3,500 net. Just blaming politics and doing nothing won’t help.
Most problems can be solved on your own.
Let’s just take the minimum wage as an example: next year, it’ll be about 1,800 EUR net.
A part-time job brings in about 633 EUR—but due to hourly limits, you can only make about 500. So that would be 2,300 net, and that’s the lower limit. Do the math with salaries after you finish your apprenticeship or college.
Now find an employer who has a lot of work and, if necessary, lets you split 36 hours over 4 days—for example, you could work on Friday in a part-time job.
In the restaurant industry, you can also have a main job (gross) plus a side job (net) and double the tips (net).
There are so many ways in Germany to make 2,500–3,500 net. Just blaming politics and doing nothing won’t help.
Most problems can be solved on your own.
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