LukasR · 2023-09-09T09:58:12.380645Z

Hallo, ich bin im Juni 18 Jahre alt geworden und möchte nun von der Möglichkeit gebrauch machen, selber zu investieren. Ich habe in der Vergangenheit bereits mehrfach für andere investiert, als ich das noch nicht mit meinem eigenen Geld tun konnte. Insofern habe ich zumindest bereits geringfügige Erfahrungen machen können. Der Unterschied ist nun allerdings, dass ich aktuell in der zwölften Klasse bin, nächstes Jahr mein Abitur mache und daher noch nicht genau weiß, wie viel Geld ich ggf. für Umzug, Wohnungseinrichtung und andere Ausgaben benötigen werde. Insofern ist mein Investmenthorizont ein anderer als der bspw meiner Mutter, für welche ich damals etwas Geld angelegt habe. Konkret verfüge ich aktuell über 4700€ an Ersparnissen, monatlich kommen 60€ Taschengeld hinzu. Ich habe nun überlegt, etwas Geld schon einmal in $XEOD anzulegen, quasi als Cash-Reserve, die aber bessere Rendite abwirft, als viele der Tagesgeldkonten. Der ESTR wird bei der derzeitigen Inflation und dem respektiven Leitzins ja noch eine Weile so bleiben. Da die 4700€ wirklich nicht allzu viel sind, denke ich, dass Einzelaktien womöglich nicht optimal sein könnten. Wie gesagt, ich möchte zwar gern langfristig anlegen, jedoch könnten künftige Ausgaben es verlangen, ein paar der Positionen aufzulösen. Da meine persönlichen Interessen im Tech-Bereich liegen und ich behaupten würde, dort schon allein aus diesem Grund recht gut informiert zu sein, würde ich auch im Tech-Sektor investieren wollen. Aufgrund der Problematik von Einzelaktien bei meinem Anlagehorizont und Budget überlege ich, auf die Indexzertifikate von Trade Republic zurückzugreifen. Konkreter denke ich dabei an Cyber Security DE000SQ4SUT1 Mobility DE000SQ4SUV7 Semiconductors DE000SQ4SUW5 evtl auch Big Tech DE000SN8XWV7 Bei Mobility stört mich jedoch etwas die geringe Gewichtung der deutschen Autobauer im Vergleich zu ganzen 10% bei $TSLA und im Fall von $TXN die Übergewichtung in meinem Portfolio, da es in Mobility, Semiconductors und Big Tech zu beträchtlichen Anteilen enthalten ist. Darüber hinaus frage ich mich, ob ich damit nicht zu USA-fokussiert wäre. Ich habe in der Vergangenheit auch noch nie mit diesem Instrument gehandelt und würde gern von Euch wissen, was es da zu beachten gibt und insbesondere, was gegen die oben genannten Indexzertifikate spricht. Das Problem, dass sie nicht als Sondervermögen gelten und bei einer Pleite der Herausgeberin, der Société Générale, das Investment nicht geschützt wäre, ist mir bewusst. Jedoch denke ich, dass ich dieses Risiko zumindest aktuell vernachlässigen kann. So wie ich das verstanden habe, ist das gegenüber einem entsprechenden ETF der größte Nachteil und das Wegfallen von Verwaltungskosten wiederum der Vorteil. Falls Ihr an der Stelle eher ETFs befürwortet, welche ETFs würdet ihr da in den genannten Sektoren empfehlen? Sollte ich doch in Einzelaktien investieren, würde ich insbesondere: $GOOGL , $AAPL und $MSFT als Big Tech-Fundament mit starken Produkten in den Bereichen Cloud Computing, KI-Anwendungen, Hardware-Produkte, VR/AR, Gaming, IoT, … $ALV und $KO als Dividendenzahler $MC zur Diversifizierung im Mode- und Luxus-Produktsegment mit stabilem Wachstum $ZAL als deutsches Unternehmen im Onlinehandel, bei welchem ich aus eigener Erfahrung sagen kann, dass es sich insbesondere in meiner Generation, deren Kaufkraft in Zukunft zunehmen wird, großer Beliebtheit erfreut. $TSM zur Einbringung eines Chip-Herstellers und Zulieferers weiterer Hardware-Hersteller neben Apple, um auch von deren Wachstum indirekt zu profitieren Eventuell $BIDU als ebenfalls stark wachsender asiatischer Gegenpol zu $GOOGL und $MSFT in den bereits oben genannten Bereichen $1211 als Auto-Zulieferer und selbst aufstrebender Autobauer, insbesondere um auch von den zunehmenden E-Auto-Verkäufen zu profitieren ins Auge fassen. Ansonsten würde ich außerdem monatlich per Sparplan etwa 30€ in einen MSCI World ETF investieren. Was sind eure Gedanken dazu, wie ich weiter vorgehen sollte? Ich freue mich über Euer Feedback und Kritik, insbesondere zu den Fragen bezüglich der Indexzertifikate. Vielen Dank schon einmal im Voraus!

@LukasR

1Yr·

Hello, I turned 18 in June and would now like to make use of the opportunity to invest myself. I have already invested for others several times in the past, when I was not yet able to do so with my own money. In this respect, I have at least already been able to make some minor experiences.

The difference now, however, is that I am currently in the twelfth grade, will graduate from high school next year, and therefore do not yet know exactly how much money I may need for moving, furnishing my apartment, and other expenses. In this respect, my investment horizon is different from that of my mother, for example, for whom I invested some money at the time.

Specifically, I currently have 4700 € in savings, monthly 60 € pocket money.

I have now considered to invest some money already once in $XEOD (-0.01%) as a cash reserve, but with a better return than many of the call money accounts. The ESTR will remain so for a while with the current inflation and the respective key interest rate.

Since the 4700€ is really not that much, I think that single stocks might not be optimal. As I said, I would like to invest for the long term, but future expenses might require me to liquidate some of the positions.

Since my personal interests are in the tech sector and I would claim to be fairly well informed there for that reason alone, I would also want to invest in the tech sector. Due to the problem of individual stocks with my investment horizon and budget, I am considering using Trade Republic's index certificates.

More specifically, I am thinking of

Cyber Security DE000SQ4SUT1
Mobility DE000SQ4SUV7
Semiconductors DE000SQ4SUW5
possibly also Big Tech DE000SN8XWV7

In the case of Mobility, however, I am somewhat disturbed by the low weighting of the German automakers compared to a full 10% in the case of $TSLA (+0.93%) and in the case of $TXN (+2.07%) the overweighting in my portfolio, as it is included in Mobility, Semiconductors and Big Tech to considerable proportions.

Beyond that, I wonder if that would make me too USA-focused.

I have also never traded this instrument in the past and would like to know from you what there is to consider and especially what speaks against the above mentioned index certificates.

I am aware of the problem that they are not considered special assets and that in case of bankruptcy of the issuer, Société Générale, the investment would not be protected. However, I think that I can neglect this risk, at least currently. As I understand it, this is the biggest disadvantage compared to a corresponding ETF and the elimination of management costs again the advantage.

If you are more in favor of ETFs at this point, which ETFs would you recommend in the sectors mentioned?

Should I invest in individual stocks after all, I would in particular:

$GOOGL (-0.36%) , $AAPL (-0.11%) and $MSFT (+2.71%) As a big tech foundation with strong products in cloud computing, AI applications, hardware products, VR/AR, gaming, IoT, ...
$ALV (+0.26%) , and $KO (-0.3%) as a dividend payer
$MC (+1.88%) To diversify in the fashion and luxury product segment with stable growth
$ZAL (-1.67%) as a German company in online retail, where I can say from my own experience that it enjoys great popularity, especially among my generation, whose purchasing power will increase in the future.
$TSM (+2.38%) to bring in a chip manufacturer and supplier of other hardware manufacturers besides Apple, in order to also indirectly profit from their growth
Possibly $BIDU (-1.86%) as a likewise strongly growing Asian counterpart to $GOOGL (-0.36%) and $MSFT (+2.71%) in the areas already mentioned above
$1211 (+0.25%) As an automotive supplier and emerging carmaker itself, especially to also benefit from increasing e-car sales.

to be envisaged.

Otherwise, I would also invest about €30 per month in an MSCI World ETF via a savings plan.

What are your thoughts on how I should proceed? I appreciate your feedback and criticism, especially on the questions regarding index certificates.

Thank you very much in advance!

15 Comments

Kai@Dividenden-Sammler

1Yr

I would recommend you to start your investment career with MSCI-World or FTSE-Allworld and to save only this as long as your monthly savings rate is still quite manageable. If you can invest more later, you can add additional individual stocks to your portfolio. For the one-time investment it is certainly recommended to first take the $XEOD until you know how much capital you need for your already planned expenses in the near future. However, I would keep my hands off industry ETFs.

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

@Dividenden-Sammler Ok, thanks a lot! I have now first of all the majority in $XEON (now but accumulating, since the distribution would otherwise hardly be enough for my 22 shares to invest them sensibly despite 1 € order fee). Apart from that, I now also have 2 $AAPL shares and a Core MSCI World in my portfolio. The monthly savings rate also flows into the latter. I have discarded sector ETFs again.

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Das Portfoliopferd@Portfoliopferd

1Yr

@LukasRichter if you buy via a savings plan, you have no order fees. 5% of the MSCI World is Apple either way. Why overweight it again?

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Epi@Epi

1Yr

If you successfully study a STEM subject, you should earn your entire current capital in one month. So apart from the money market reserve, it shouldn't really matter in absolute terms where you invest and how much. So I would suggest that you just try different strategies. ETFs, certificates, B&H, market timing, etc. You can then use the experience gained when money really comes in. Good luck anyway!

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

@Epi Yes, that's right :). My goal is to study computer science, if possible at Stanford (Computer Sciences program). But that would only be possible with a scholarship. That's why it's still so hard for me to estimate how much I'll have to rely on my savings in a few months.

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Epi@Epi

1Yr

@LukasRichter That sounds like a plan! If it works out, you'll need quite a bit of money for your move, vacation, girlfriend (especially in the U.S.), etc. I'd rather play it safe and collect the prime rates in a relaxed manner at $XEOD.

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

Hi @Epi, I wanted to get back to you with a question. I've read about your GTAA and dual momentum strategy in several posts and in your profile and I've looked at the papers on it. I would now like to program a backtesting tool to compare retrospectively how different assets and allocations of them would have performed in the past. Of course, the performance in euros is more interesting for me (at least at the moment :)). However, many ETFs in particular also have a large proportion invested in securities listed in USD. I'm not sure whether I should look at the performance in USD or in EUR for the comparison, as the comparison in EUR naturally involves some currency fluctuations and is therefore more of a form of noise in the data, which is largely decoupled from the respective performance of the asset classes. On the other hand, only the performance in "my" currency counts for me anyway. Do you have any ideas on how I should approach this? Comparison in EUR or USD? Or are there such strong correlations between the development of USD-EUR exchange rates and the asset classes that the exchange rates do not significantly distort the general development and momentum of the assets?

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Epi@Epi

1Yr

@LukasRichter Hello Lukas, the currency issue is indeed quite complicated and I have not yet clarified it conclusively for myself. There are many things to consider: 1. if it is only a matter of developing a good model, Portfoliovisualizer is sufficient. There is no corresponding backtesting option for euro securities, if only because the corresponding assets are often not listed for that long. In USD you get good data up to around 2000, in EUR up to 2013. 2. The differences between models in USD and EUR correlate with the currency fluctuations and these can sometimes be 20%pa. There are assets that tend in one direction with a certain USD trend, e.g. gold tends to rise when the USD falls. In these cases, you can simply use hedged ETFs. With other assets, it is the other way around, you can take unhedged ones. You then have to understand the economic logic of the assets in the model. 3. the signal situation is difficult. Sometimes a buy signal is triggered in USD but not in EUR. Here you have to decide which rule to follow. One possibility is to take the signals in USD but trade the ETFs in EUR. But this also has consequences. 4 On the whole, however, it can be said that the performances roughly converge. The currency areas and interest rate policies are very dependent on each other in the long term, so that short-term deviations only play a subordinate role. So you can take a fairly relaxed approach to the matter. I hope this has helped a little. If you have developed a backtest tool, you can get in touch. There is a Signal group that also works on such things.

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

@Epi OK, then I'll probably just use a toggle for signals in EUR or native currency for the backtesting tool. I didn't know about the Portfoliovisualizer tool (the whole site in general) and had pretty much the same thing in mind. It's definitely very exciting, especially with the presets for the various strategies. I'll write again when I'm a bit further along.

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Femke@femkelbn

1Yr

I can only agree with @Dividenden-Sammler. As long as you do not know exactly how much money you will need for your planned expenses, a call money account or alternatively a money market ETF is the more sensible choice. After that, it's best to start with just a world ETF to build a solid base. Once you've built up that position significantly, you can always add individual stocks as you see fit, but even that doesn't have to be an issue. Very cool that you want to start at your age. 👍🏻 Wish you all the best for the future! 🍀

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

@femkelbn Thanks for the tips! Have now also invested most in $XEON, then something in a MSCI World and a smaller amount at Apple👍🏻

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Derebete@Derebete

1Yr

in the long run (as soon as you know that you can do without the money at least 6-7 years) a core satelite strategy is probably the best option (because unlike the 1 etf solution you are also doing what your text sounds like you are interested in), but the most important was that you have started and now with monthly money to stay I find great (I'm 3 years older and do exactly the same (because student also with similar monthly amounts) .... Stick with it, don't get irritated by strange market movements, the world will not end and even if the money brings you nothing more as long as you are not super rich and find people who still work for money in a doomsday scenario.... if you have fun in individual shares, the expansion of individual shares makes sense to have more fun, but in most cases you will probably do better in the long term with a pure Ftse all-world yield-wise... I think it is also very admirable that you have looked at the statements of your etfs, if you buy ishare (so Blackrock) I can you the ishares analysis tool for etfs (name I've forgotten with googlen you should find it but) warmly recommend, there you can still find exciting additional information

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Hamster@RausAusDemHamsterrad

1Yr

It's great that you're already thinking about investing at your age. If I were you, I would allocate your savings to overnight accounts or money market ETFs for now. I can recommend you this book 😊: https://www.amazon.de/reichste-Mann-von-Babylon-Erfolgsgeheimnisse/dp/3442163838/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1CZQYEAFYGC00&keywords=der+richest+man+from+babylon&qid=1695203058&sprefix=the+richest+man+%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-1 These are the things I wish I had known about finaznen when I was 18 :). If I were 18 again, I would make it a habit to invest 10-20% of my income in an ETF savings plan right at the beginning of the month. On that note, I highly recommend the Vanguard FTSE All Country ETF as it's a solid long-term option. To me, it would be important to be consistent with this strategy and adjust the savings plan as your income increases. The rate can be higher at times, but I would never let it drop below 10%, which would be my base investment. I would possibly choose the ETF to be distributing rather than accumulating. This would give me the choice of reinvesting the dividends back into the ETF or into individual stocks. This will probably only become really interesting after a term of more than 10 years. Regarding the portfolio, I would make sure to invest in a very broad ETF first. This may not be very exciting, but in your scenario you would still have 47 years until you are 65, and the money can work for you during that time. In keeping with the motto, "Time in Market Beats Market Timing." Then, when you have reached a large enough portfolio size of more than 10,000€ and your monthly savings rate is significantly higher, you could possibly start with small individual positions, but no more than 5% of your portfolio value. In addition, at your age, I would try to increase my cash flow. You could look for a side job on a 520€ basis or consider a vacation job. This could help you to significantly increase your current income of 60€ and thus massively increase your monthly savings rate.

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LukasR@LukasR

1Yr

@RausAusDemHamsterrad Many thanks for your tips! Unfortunately, I lost sight of replying to them at the time. But I've just gone back through the comments on the post and saw your comment again. I've now implemented the ETF savings plan, but have opted for the $LCUW, as the $VWCE has performed worse so far. And if the higher-weighted developing countries in it pick up momentum, this will be more of a long-term trend, so there will still be time to reallocate. My profits from the current investment will probably not be so big that I would have to worry about the tax-free allowance of €1000. In the meantime, I have already read the book you suggested and definitely find it very interesting. I will definitely take the advice in it to heart.

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news03@user03

1Yr

Personally, I would first build up a core of etfs, 70/30 or all wold and then add satellites. You can put 4000 into the etfs and 700 into a share if you want, have a look at Blackrock. Personal opinion, no advice :)

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