3Yr
Thanks for the insightful post! One question: If I see it right, you have not included the commissions in the cost calculation of the policies. That does not have to be, if one locks the RV over a fee advisor, but you are now commission advisor. Here the costs can become quite stately (e.g. Universa 7.5% of the total deposit sum to pay in the first 5 years), that were with 1000€ savings ratio and 7% hypothetical net yield with compound interest effect at the end approx. 70,000€ less pension! When I concerned myself with all this question a few months ago, the intransparency and the height of the costs made me quite kirre. 7 consultants have sent me away or ghosted!
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@Epi You're welcome! I'm glad you took the time to read it anyway :) First of all, just because you have a net policy from a fee-based advisor doesn't mean it's cheaper in the long run. In fact, often the opposite is true. In fact, there are not many companies that offer net policies. One of the points that are significantly underestimated in policies: the "volume-dependent costs". For example: per 1.000€ contract balance monthly fees in the amount of 0,35€ are due. With the PRVs I broker, I am usually around/below 0.5% costs p.a. incl. TER ETF. Since you bring up the example of Universa: The costs for conclusion, distribution, etc. amount to 2.5% of the total deposit amount. This amount is the same for most insurers, some take 3-3.5%. Universa, however, is not known for paying its agents "princely" wages compared to other companies. The high cost item here is the approximately 7.5% administrative costs, which are incurred once on the premium in each case. Unfortunately, one has no influence on this. Also correct: The gross deposit value is lower at the end of the term than with an investment without insurance. What needs to be checked individually and definitely cannot be answered in a general way is: Who is ahead on a net basis? And should regroupings/advance lump sums etc. be taken into account? Unfortunately, there are many factors - including those mentioned in the previous sentence - that are currently not foreseeable. Additional info: In contrast to a fee-based advisor, I have to be liable for 5 years. If the contract is terminated during this period, the money I have earned is gone again. So I should be careful not to mediate anything that does not fit the prospective client. With fee-based consulting, you only pay for the consulting itself.
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•3Yr
@Dr27589 Danke für Deine Antwort! Es ist ja wirklich nicht einfach mit den Kosten. Beispiel Abschlusskosten und Verwaltungskosten.
Angenommen, ich möchte 500€/ Monat für 30 Jahre einzahlen. Dann ergibt das eine Gesamteinzahlsummen von 500€x12Monatex30 Jahre = 180.000€. 2,5% davon ergeben 4500€. Abgesehen davon, dass mir die Gegenleistung für den Preis eines Gebrauchtwagens völlig schleierhaft ist, gehen mir ja 30 Jahre Rendite auf diese 4500€ verloren. Du hast 6% pa angesetzt, d.h. 4500€ x 1,06^30 = 25845€. Das sind nur die Abschlussgebühren, die ich de facto zahle!
Kommen nun noch 7,5% Verwaltungskosten dazu, dann sind das 7,5%x180.000€ = 13500€ zu zahlen am Anfang. Das macht bei 6%pa über 30 Jahre: 13500€ x 1,06^30 = 118190€. Nur für die Verwaltung - was auch immer damit gemeint ist!
Insgesamt sind das mindestens 160.000€ tatsächliche Kosten/ entgangene Rendite bei 180.000€ Einzahlung. Irre!
Dazu kommt noch, dass die Universa zu den günstigen Fondspolicen gehört, was wohl auch stimmt. Meine Eltern hatten für mich eine alte AllianzRV bespart. Deren Kosten haben mich von den Socken gehauen! Im Wesentlichen haben die die gesamte Rendite als Kosten einbehalten und hatten das auch weiter vorgesehen (auf S. 27 in Schriftgröße 9 stand etwas von 3-4,5% effektive Kosten).
Naja, ich habe durchgehalten und nun eine Nettopolice ohne Provisions/Abschlusskosten und mit insgesamt 0,3% TER für einen WorldETF. Die empfehle ich zuweilen auch, wenn das Thema aufkommt, aber die Erde scheint verbrannt. Sobald ich RV sage, gehen die Scheuklappen runter, völlig egal, was ich dann noch sage. Das Tragische: ich kann es niemandem verübeln und so wechsele ich das Thema ganz willig.
Angenommen, ich möchte 500€/ Monat für 30 Jahre einzahlen. Dann ergibt das eine Gesamteinzahlsummen von 500€x12Monatex30 Jahre = 180.000€. 2,5% davon ergeben 4500€. Abgesehen davon, dass mir die Gegenleistung für den Preis eines Gebrauchtwagens völlig schleierhaft ist, gehen mir ja 30 Jahre Rendite auf diese 4500€ verloren. Du hast 6% pa angesetzt, d.h. 4500€ x 1,06^30 = 25845€. Das sind nur die Abschlussgebühren, die ich de facto zahle!
Kommen nun noch 7,5% Verwaltungskosten dazu, dann sind das 7,5%x180.000€ = 13500€ zu zahlen am Anfang. Das macht bei 6%pa über 30 Jahre: 13500€ x 1,06^30 = 118190€. Nur für die Verwaltung - was auch immer damit gemeint ist!
Insgesamt sind das mindestens 160.000€ tatsächliche Kosten/ entgangene Rendite bei 180.000€ Einzahlung. Irre!
Dazu kommt noch, dass die Universa zu den günstigen Fondspolicen gehört, was wohl auch stimmt. Meine Eltern hatten für mich eine alte AllianzRV bespart. Deren Kosten haben mich von den Socken gehauen! Im Wesentlichen haben die die gesamte Rendite als Kosten einbehalten und hatten das auch weiter vorgesehen (auf S. 27 in Schriftgröße 9 stand etwas von 3-4,5% effektive Kosten).
Naja, ich habe durchgehalten und nun eine Nettopolice ohne Provisions/Abschlusskosten und mit insgesamt 0,3% TER für einen WorldETF. Die empfehle ich zuweilen auch, wenn das Thema aufkommt, aber die Erde scheint verbrannt. Sobald ich RV sage, gehen die Scheuklappen runter, völlig egal, was ich dann noch sage. Das Tragische: ich kann es niemandem verübeln und so wechsele ich das Thema ganz willig.
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•@Epi Closing fees: You have to reduce by the amount the fee consultant takes. Is usually a similar sum, but not over 5 years, but as a one-time payment. miscalculation: The 4500 € are due over a period of 60 months, not in one fell swoop. The 7.5% is not paid at the beginning, but always deducted monthly from the individual contribution. So the calculation is a bit more complex and should always be compared to a normal ETF savings plan gross/net. At least as good as it is possible due to uncertain factors in the future. Allianz is unfortunately not a cheap provider, I have to agree with you. But they offer a great BU/DU combination! Regarding the "reputation" of the RV: Unfortunately true. The industry does not have its bad reputation without good reason... To close oneself to the topic completely - independent of arguments - I find wrong. Not only in relation to insurance, but basically in life.
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•3Yr
@Dr27589 My fee-based advisor was one for people who don't really need advice and only get paid for the work involved in drawing up, checking and transmitting the contract. Since I was already reasonably well advised after No. 7, that suited me. The conclusion cost me 150€. Negligible with my savings amount. Calculating the cost as a one-time cost was a simplification. But it's true, I could have fairly taken that into account by setting the closing cost payment to an average of 2.5 years after inception. That would be "only" 4500€x1,06^27,5 = 22342€ lost return instead of 25845€ lost return. Is not decisive for me. Similarly for the 7.5% management costs, where you get 13500€x1.06^15 years = 32350€ when calculating the means. This is not as much as in my calculation, "only" 55,000€ costs, but it remains for me an absolute NoGo! Without wanting to offend you now, but exactly this has always driven me crazy with the consultants. They say: no, you can't make this rough calculation, it's not right, it's completely different. In the end, no one did a transparent calculation with me. That's why, in the end, I always had the feeling that I was being ripped off. It was really hard not to just throw in the towel and say, "Screw all you insurance people! I can understand the resentment, but I agree with you, closing yourself off to any arguments is not a good idea - especially with finances, where it is not important to be right ;-)
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•@Epi Then it was probably a very manageable effort :) Usually the conversation begins with information about absolute basics, interest rates, shares, ETFs, etc. As a rough estimate calculation quite okay, you have thought much more than most others, I think super :) Exactly that should be done but: transparent calculate through, in direct comparison with an ETF savings plan through a normal broker. The insurance should stand there net better, otherwise the conclusion is not worth it. Whether the costs that are deducted in the respective companies over time are justified / are in proportion to the effort or not is a moot point.... I am not interested in the end of the day. If someone offers something whereby I have more money available at the end and he earns something from it, it doesn't bother me whether it is a lot or a little. Especially since here the factors like level of knowledge about investment etc. of the person are disregarded. By the way, exactly these comments/questions/discussions were the reason for me to write the post here. Here are the people on the road, who are well versed in the field of investment. That's why the "awkward" questions come here. This is also to put my own knowledge to the test.
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