2Yrยท

๐™’๐™–๐™ง๐™ช๐™ข ๐™‹๐™ค๐™ง๐™จ๐™˜๐™๐™š ๐™‹๐™ง๐™ค๐™›๐™ž๐™ฉ๐™ž๐™š๐™ง๐™ฉ, ๐™š๐™œ๐™–๐™ก ๐™ฌ๐™–๐™จ ๐™๐™š๐™จ๐™ก๐™– ๐™ข๐™–๐™˜๐™๐™ฉ

ATTENTION LONG POST!

(my last long post was criticized for being surprisingly long)


But before I start explaining what's behind the title, I wanted to say three things:


1. i cracked the 100 subscription mark last week, i want to celebrate that now with a quality offensive and thank you guys, be prepared for some posts with some research (but will be spread out in time)


2. props to the one who brought me to exactly this topic: Moritz aka Leveragegrinding,

the post that referred to an article was unfortunately deleted


3. in the entire post I speak exclusively of Porsche Ag, unless I write Se behind it (Porsche Ag=Porsche production + research/ Porsche Se = holding company holds VW and other smaller companies) for voting I use the se, because ag does not exist on the market



๐—ฆ๐˜๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—ธ๐˜๐˜‚๐—ฟ:

๐Ÿญ. ๐—ญ๐˜‚๐—ธ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ณ๐˜ ๐—ฒ ๐—”๐˜‚๐˜๐—ผ: ๐˜‡๐˜„๐—ฒ๐—ถ ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ด๐—ฒ

๐Ÿฎ. ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—น๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ฃ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—บ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ด ๐Ÿฎ, ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—นรถ๐˜€๐˜?

๐Ÿฏ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ด ๐Ÿญ ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐—ด๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ณรผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜

๐Ÿฐ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐˜ƒ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ง๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—น๐—ฎ ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜, ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—บ๐—ฒ๐—ต๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐˜€๐—ฒ๐—ป

๐Ÿฑ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ง๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—น๐—ฎ ๐—ฎ๐—บ ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—ณ๐—ต๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ธ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—œ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜

๐Ÿฒ. ๐—ฃ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€รถ๐—ป๐—น๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—™๐—ฎ๐˜‡๐—ถ๐˜



๐Ÿญ. ๐—ญ๐˜‚๐—ธ๐˜‚๐—ป๐—ณ๐˜ ๐—ฒ ๐—”๐˜‚๐˜๐—ผ

To break it down very simply: we need a change from the current combustion engine to a climate-neutral way of getting around, firstly, we can already see that this probably won't work with public transport alone, we simply like driving individually too much, secondly, car manufacturers worldwide, whether in China, the USA or Germany, have a damn strong lobby (in China as far as possible, but China is also dependent on cars). Now there are currently two paths that can be taken: we convert everything to electric cars, as many Tesla enthusiasts are longing to do; it should be clear that this is not the best way in all cases, especially in extreme situations such as the Alps in winter or Dubai in general, but we are talking about the broad market.

The second way is a little less drastic, it's about efuels... The system has some advantages but also a huge disadvantage: We would already have many filling stations for efuels that would not have to be converted (they are already mixed into normal fuel), for consumers an efuel car is significantly less investment-intensive than an e car, we would destroy the planet significantly less due to the reduced lithium consumption, high-performance engines for le Mans(or for example tractors(for towing tanks)) are possible, you can simply fill up and don't have to wait for charging and it is easier to transport than electricity. But as already mentioned, efuels have one major disadvantage: an e-car currently consumes significantly less energy for the same distance (with similar effort). But as the attentive reader will already have noticed, I'm talking about the current situation, which is where Porsche comes in:


๐Ÿฎ. ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—น๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—ฃ๐—ฟ๐—ผ๐—ฏ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—บ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜ ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ด ๐Ÿฎ, ๐—ฑ๐—ฎ๐˜€๐˜€ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—นรถ๐˜€๐˜?

So far, efuels are not really represented, they can only be produced with green electricity if they are to be climate-neutral, but that is not really different from the e-car. Siemens and Porsche are currently building a pilot plant in Chile, supported by the German government, by the way. But why Chile? Chile simply has a lot of wind energy. Why the immediate switch to efuels is not working: the production of efuels is currently very low; by 2024, production is expected to amount to 1.2% of fuel consumption in 2019 (in Germany). But why should the "Hutzelbude" (as my father affectionately calls it) from Zuffenhausen, which is very small compared to other car manufacturers, benefit so exponentially from this market: if efuels work, they are already so far, like Tesla when e-cars became a trend, there is a pioneering role, only here the entry level is higher... much much higher. But it will take some time before we normal consumers see anything from efuels, Porsche wants to use the efuels primarily for the Porsche expirience (flashbacks to a competition๐Ÿ˜Š greetings to @GoDividend ). But why it doesn't really matter whether we switch to efuels for private cars (at least for Porsche's sales) is discussed next.


๐Ÿฏ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ช๐—ฒ๐—ด ๐Ÿญ ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—ฐ๐—ต ๐—ด๐˜‚๐˜ ๐—ณรผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜

Now we finally come to the point I came across because of Moritz: why Porsche also benefits if there are only e cars, even if Tesla as an example (whether you think this is realistic is up to you, but I don't think so) has a market share of 23.2% (because I have seen several Apple comparisons times the market share of q4 2021). Why Porsche will continue to have a market share comes later. The article that Moritz linked was about the fact that if we were to replace 10 million cars in Germany with electric cars, we would not be able to drive in a climate-neutral way. But why the whole thing now: if we were to switch to 10 million electric vehicles, we would totally overload a grid that consists only of renewables. We would have to fall back on nuclear power, gas or coal to provide the electricity we need, especially at night, because we simply don't have the storage options for a fluctuating amount of electricity (wind and solar). Porsche is now coming up with two solutions: on the one hand, electricity can be used to produce efuel, which is also comparatively easy to store. That's why it doesn't really matter whether efuels are used for private cars, they are needed either way (anyone who wants to can find out about the other possible uses of efuels). On the other hand, Porsche is coming up with the possibility of using the car as a mobile power bank, so to speak (i.e. being able to discharge it again). At least in terms of research, Porsche is the market leader here. The Taycan, together with its brother Audi etron, was also the first to introduce 800-volt technology to the wider market; if we have to fall back on the "mobile power bank", we need ways to quickly discharge a lot of electricity, otherwise we will quickly have a blackout. Porsche has its own battery production as an advantage over VW, for example. Porsche is also planning to switch to 80% electric cars by 2030.


๐Ÿฐ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ฃ๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜€๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐—ฟ ๐˜ƒ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ง๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—น๐—ฎ ๐—ถ๐˜€๐˜


When I talk about security here, it can be interpreted in several ways: what Musk is currently doing with Twitter could be perceived as a threat, and Porsche's retention of market share could also be seen as a threat.

First, the impossible takeover:

Porsche cannot be taken over by Musk just like that:

Porsche itself is currently owned by Volkswagen, and 75% will remain in VW hands even if it goes public. VW only has a free float of 42%, anchor investors such as the state of Lower Saxony, etc. However, the majority of the ordinary shares are held by Porsche SE, which does have ordinary shares, but these are all in the hands of the Porsche/Piech families. A hostile takeover is therefore impossible.

So Musk can't simply buy Porsche and flatten it.


But why Porsche also has certain market shares:

Anyone who buys a Rolex buys it at a HIGHER price than just the quality represents. This also has little to do with production costs. Anyone who buys a Rolex wants a certain image, a certain brand, simply a certain promise. It's similar with Porsche: there may be some who want to have the fastest electric car, whether it's a Tesla or not, but Porsche is not just about speed: Porsche has a certain kind of luxury, Tesla is more of a standard car in comparison. Porsche is associated with having achieved something, you buy quality according to the image, you buy a driving experience, some would even describe it as a way of life to drive a Porsche. Anyone who wants to drive a Porsche is not only tempted by the manufacturer's specifications (another post on this will follow in the coming weeks) (which, by the way, are sometimes very difficult to compare, especially when it comes to Tesla vs Porsche). Porsche simply has certain customers that Tesla cannot reach. (same with Ferrari, by the way). Porsche should therefore not lack customers in the long term, as long as we don't have a long economic crisis.


What makes Porsche special compared to all other car manufacturers when you look at individual company figures is its profitability: they are the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, ahead of Tesla, ahead of Ferrari, ahead of everyone. This should also help against inflation. The profit margin is sometimes up to 50% per car delivered.



๐Ÿฑ. ๐—ช๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐˜‚๐—บ ๐—ง๐—ฒ๐˜€๐—น๐—ฎ ๐—ฎ๐—บ ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—ณ๐—ต๐—ผ๐—น๐—ฒ๐—ป ๐—ธ๐—ฒ๐—ถ๐—ป ๐—œ๐—ป๐˜๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ๐˜€๐˜€๐—ฒ ๐—ต๐—ฎ๐˜


Elon Musk is strictly adhering to the vision of electric cars and has been resisting statements that efuels or hydrogen are alternatives for years, so a change of course is not really to be expected in this area.

However, it is not entirely clear why Tesla is abandoning the charging option for Teslas, but since an announcement in 2019, there has only been unofficial news about this field, and not exactly positive news:

According to an internal, it is no longer planned to use the Tesla as a mobile storage unit. And if it were still planned, Musk would have announced this a long time ago, Elon Musk is not exactly known for skipping announcements/promises (regardless of whether he can keep them or not).



๐Ÿฒ. ๐—ฃ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ๐˜€รถ๐—ป๐—น๐—ถ๐—ฐ๐—ต๐—ฒ๐˜€ ๐—™๐—ฎ๐˜‡๐—ถ๐˜:


The Porsche IPO will not only be exciting for me as a Zuffenhausen resident, the stock will also be a safe bet based on valuation... I will look at the valuation at the IPO and get in depending on the price, but in the long term the Porsche Ag position should become one of the larger individual stocks in my portfolio. (no investment advice)


I know the topic of Tesla is a very controversial one, but I still ask for a civilized discussion of the topic in the comments.


in the sources I use the Autobild and Wikipedia, briefly what:

-I took the Autobild article (picture ๐Ÿคฎ) because it presents the situation very well without any deeper reading, which is why I found it ok as a source for easy reference

- I have included Wikipedia because it has a very good graphic showing what is currently economically feasible with efuels I apologize for these unscientific sources



As there is more to an offensive than just one post, look forward to more exciting topics in the coming weeks,


The following topics are currently being planned:

- Newstrading (2-part)

- Project Underpants Speculator

- Market timing... Why it can't actually work, and yet sometimes it does

- Why I don't like Elon Musk and still think he's a genius

- Roast me

(no guarantee of actual implementation)


Now two small things to conclude:

-You are also welcome to visit @leveragegrinding as already mentioned, a post of his served as inspiration

-thanks for reading ๐Ÿ˜Š



๐๐ฎ๐ž๐ฅ๐ฅ๐ž๐ง:



https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Zehn-Millionen-E-Autos-statt-Verbrenner-Autos-Was-bringt-das-dem-Klima-6681209.html#aoh=16500300803658&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=Von%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Ftp%2Ffeatures%2FZehn-Millionen-E-Autos-statt-Verbrenner-Autos-Was-bringt-das-dem-Klima-6681209.html

https://www.autobild.de/artikel/e-fuels-von-porsche-und-siemens-plaene-klimaneutral-18619257.html

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Fuel

https://www.autobild.de/artikel/efuels-zukunft-preis-tanken-nachteile-oeko-sprit-20574151.html

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/alternative-antriebe/synthetische-kraftstoffe-porsche-intensiviert-e-fuel-forschung/

https://www.osterei.de

https://www.computerwoche.de/a/apple-mit-groesstem-smartphone-marktanteil,3552275

https://www.porsche.com/germany/models/taycan/taycan-models/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw0umSBhDrARIsAH7FCofUN8ivOjnx-gIhYFMsLHockyJMu_TRtjcvtbg55Nhxxt8IccY34J0aAkvhEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/alternative-antriebe/porsche-hochleistungsbatterie-zellen-silizium-anode/

https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/porsche-elektromobilitaet-batterieforschung-101.html

https://www.deraktionaer.de/aktien/kurse/volkswagenst-DE0007664005.html

https://www.merkur.de/wirtschaft/tesla-gewinn-fahrzeug-vw-audi-bmw-mercedes-porsche-zr-91287418.html

https://nachbelichtet.com/ist-das-tesla-model-3-ein-fahrender-pv-speicher-oder-noch-nicht/#:~:text=Die%20%E2%80%9CVehicle%2Dto%2Dgrid,aus%20dem%20Auto%20entnehmen%20kann.

@Lorena this is the discussed post

@meta
@Tobirama
@derlieblingsbanker
@Dreamliner
@DiFigiANo
@deepmind
@VP

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Tesla logo
Tesla
39.66%
Porsche Automobil Holding logo
Porsche Automobil Holding
60.34%
812 Votes
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53 Comments

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Great post โ˜บ๏ธ๐Ÿ‘ I'm only invested in Porsche SE so far, and plan to subscribe to Porsche shares at the Porsche IPO if it's possible wirdโ˜บ๏ธ๐Ÿ‘ I'd be interested to know who else here is considering investing in Porsche shares ๐Ÿค” give me a ๐Ÿš€ so I know how big to get ๐Ÿ˜‚
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@Simpson I have Porsche on my shopping list with a total of 2kโ‚ฌ.
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@six thank you :)
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@Derebete You're welcome. I will definitely be watching Porsche after the IPO.
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That's why I have both of them in my portfolio :) I'm also taking a close look at the Porsche IPO.
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I will bookmark this and read it later at my leisure๐Ÿš€
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Watch what they do not what they say, that they expect 80% BEV in 2030 says everything about the e-fuel plan. Pure marketing, it will never make money, and then where do you see Porsche in 2030? Let's be honest, they will have changed their product range a bit, but basically continue to sell sports cars to the wealthy with good margins. They can't go downmarket or do anything other than driverscars with the brand (nix autonomous driving), so they are very limited. Tesla could push 10-20M robotaxis a year on the road in 10 years, launch huge energy projects with solar and stationary batteries. Be at the forefront of artificial intelligence (Dojo, Optimus). Will pretty much be the biggest company in the world. I like Porsche too but comparing the two companies here is a bit ridiculous....
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@svenleowe if you have this opinion is good that you are all in tesla....
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@svenleowe I think that the key question here was rather whether Porsche competes directly with Tesla or whether they are different target groups / markets / TAMs. A direct comparison is rather difficult with most companies (and Tesla is certainly a good example) anyway, since there are hardly two congruent companies. And the fact that Tesla is now not the luxury symbol like a Lambo, Porsche or limited also a Mercedes, is I think obvious and also not the goal of Tesla.
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@MaxD yep, that's what the post is about, why Porsche will continue to do well, it's not about comparing the two companies
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@MaxD I can already see that it will be the next Telekom. Hopelessly oversubscribed, then bid up in the first week without end. And then 10 years of dead money.
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@svenleowe that's why you spread your investments cough cough and before you start talking about Buffet he spreads too
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@svenleowe That can happen with a German favorite. That's why I'm staying away from it in any case for the time being. But even that was not the point of the post but just the general comparison of the target group and whether there is an overlap here.
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Porsche is currently struggling with its support line at 81 euros, with which it has been fighting again and again since March 2021 (sometimes positively, sometimes not). Next support line I see at about 74 euros. Since 13.4.21 you fight against your 200 day line and the upper Bollinger. If you succeed and the price rises to the area of 82 โ‚ฌ, I see potential. Whether you then run out of steam at โ‚ฌ86 as around 8.4. will be seen from a price of โ‚ฌ91. Currently, the price is well supported for me from the stochastic and I expect a new breakout attempt in the next few days. Tesla is just struggling with its all-time high from November 2021 with profit-taking sales of investors what has only recovered in March and is also confirmed by the stochastic. Support lines I see at 720 euros but even stronger at 600 euros. Currently, they are struggling with the 200-day line and the upper Bollinger band, which further prevents the breakout through price-taking. Currently, it looks to me like a short in the direction of 900 euros. I see a chance to go long again only from a price of 950 euros.
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@justoxford as I said, the post deals more with Porsche AG than with Porsche se, but otherwise interesting analysis
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Again the picture as a source and there is a slap in the face ... even if it is the Autobild
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@SharkAce I know bild mรคh but the article was just not on Bild level, but just normal, and you can check my facts without having to read in....
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@SharkAce but i think it is good that you check sources ๐Ÿ‘
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@Patrizia good that I'm not the only one ๐Ÿค๐Ÿ˜‚
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@Patrizia shitty scientific work ๐Ÿ™ƒ... sitz just on my bachelor thesis
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@Patrizia thank you thank you... I also look forward to the day of delivery ๐Ÿ™ƒ
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@Patrizia not for the time being๐Ÿ˜ถ I would have no advantages at all with my current employer. It could only become interesting in the event of a change
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porsche for sound alone
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since i have Porsche Holding in my portfolio, i am looking forward to the ipo ๐Ÿš€
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Clean. Porsche No. 1 in mobility. E Fuels may only be a niche, the expense is too high for extreme masses, but if Porsche also serves this niche, the signs are ๐Ÿš€ But I also expect a valuation of at least 100 billion.
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@svenleowe had announced it
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@Yusake kp :D Porsche is not in competition with Tesla except for the Model S Plaid :D
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Also waiting for the IPO. I also have Porsche SE in my portfolio.
Does this give you an advantage in the IPO?
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@He-Man vw and Porsche will receive cash as a result ๐Ÿคท๐Ÿผโ€โ™‚๏ธ
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Mine as a shareholder. Do I perhaps have a right of first refusal on the Porsche AG shares?
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@He-Man Probably not
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Mega post, thank you! I'm looking forward to the Porsche IPO. I just don't know yet when the best time to start is. But I think the sooner the better!
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Thank you. Really good post๐Ÿ‘
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If you buy VW now, do you also get the Porsche shares at the IPO? If not, can you buy something else to benefit from the IPO?
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@MvS no, if you have vw shares, you don't automatically get Porsche shares...


but you can already buy Porsche se because they get 25%+1 of the shares (ordinary)
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@MelonUsk97 as I already replied to another post: I'm not comparing the two, I'm just stating that porsche benefits from tesla's career regardless of its development
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@MelonUsk97 read the topic again in the post...
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@MelonUsk97 I agree with you in terms of content, but are you trying to explain "luxury" rationally here? My 10 euro watch tells the time just as well as a 10,000 euro Rolex and yet people still buy it!
Yes, the target group for luxury is smaller than the general public and Tesla will certainly do a good job of cleaning up with VW or even the basic models from Mercedes etc. (A-Class, B-Class etc.). But luxury and brand image have nothing but absolutely nothing to do with the price, the hard facts such as acceleration or what else a company does.
Sry the argument makes absolutely no sense

And I'll say again: I'm also a Tesla fan and find the company absolutely impressive!
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@MaxD Thank you for the detailed answer, ust exactly what I want to say (but it has something to do with price, the more expensive the more you can differentiate yourself from others: more expensive therefore better (is not my opinion but just the logic behind such high prices).
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@MelonUsk97 But the Model 3 looks like shit ;-) ... I say, although I only have Tesla and no Porsche in my depot ... (but I'm keen on the Taycan)
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@MelonUsk97 you're contradicting yourself right now
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@MelonUsk97 If you drive 200 km/h in a Tesla, the noise is unbearable, the quality is atrocious and the reason that it is the best-selling electric car is probably mainly the price.
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