Super contribution The only problem I have explicitly with nibe is the quality of the systems. I have worked on them several times and can only say that the quality of the components and many soldered joints leaves a lot to be desired. In my experience, competitor companies such as daikin, mitsubishi or samsung are worlds better in terms of quality. Then I have a problem with the whole energy efficiency thing. Nibe does not want to become climate neutral by 2030, but is forced to do so due to the pfas decision, like every other refrigeration/air conditioning company. It states that from 2030 onwards, no equipment using safety refrigerants may be sold, maintained or repaired. The problem is that we do not have an ideal substitute refrigerant, the plan is to use completely natural refrigerants such as propane, butane, helium, ammonia or co2. However, these pose a high risk as they are either highly flammable or highly toxic. To make a long story short, and assuming the worst, people would be forced to have abc bombs installed in their homes. the main problem is that the entire refrigeration/air conditioning/ventilation industry is still relatively young and in its infancy compared to other industries. There is still a lot of research to be done in the next few years to ensure a reasonable solution for operational and occupational safety, as well as performance despite low temperature differences. If we assume that we will run everything with natural refrigerants, we would not be able to guarantee either. Another problem is the purchase. Right now, heat pumps only make sense in houses with underfloor heating and good insulation. At the moment, most houses in germany do not meet the requirements, so it makes no sense to install a heat pump there. The conversion from normal heating to underfloor heating with a heat pump alone can cost upwards of €100,000. I personally wonder who has that kind of money lying around and is willing to pay the price for the fact that it probably won't get warmer than 19 degrees in a cold winter.
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@LouisBlm1911 Thank you very much for your detailed comment and insight, but I have one more comment and point to make, and that is that the energy efficiency story is very much of NIBE's own making and understanding. The climate targets or the targets themselves are partly beyond the target of the resolutions. The refrigerants that are used in the current versions of the heat pump are now already of natural origin. Propane (R290) is successfully used, for example, in the S2125 model. The experience with this agent has NIBE already go into the years. Also your argumentation to heat pumps and the condition or given effectiveness in connection with underfloor heating I can not understand. Just in the last 1.5 years it became more and more clear that also larger surface heating elements and almost all buildings from year of construction 2000 can be served effectively and efficiently with heat pump. But of course I also agree with you regarding the argument of research and still quite "young" development. But it is precisely this that also opens up great opportunities.In this respect.... The topic will not only be a big point today or tomorrow, but also in the future of course exciting and highly complex.
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•@InvestmentPapa Regarding the energy efficiency story specific to nibe, i agree that i made a mistake. I generalized from the entire industry to nibe without having a clear understanding of the nibe agenda. of course, refrigerants like propane have been used for a long time, especially in heat pumps. My problem, specifically with propane, is that the refrigerant and the equipment are mis-marketed. It is generally said in the industry that the system has the same performance as a comparable system running on R407C. For example, on nibe's website, under air-to-water heat pump, it says "We offer you a performance that is safe for both you and the environment, with significant energy savings". This is simply not the case, if I build both systems identically, the propane system runs longer with the same cooling load requirement and therefore also consumes more electricity, which is not a significant energy saving for me. In my argumentation around the heat pumps, I naturally assumed ideal conditions for heat pumps. Of course, I can also do this with panel radiators, but they require a higher flow temperature of about 5-10K compared to underfloor heating. Even if it's not a huge difference, I would need more energy to reach my target value. You're also right about buildings built after 2000, but that's a vanishingly small percentage in Germany. On average, houses throughout germany are 36 years old (source destatis). Whereas you can say that the production of heat pumps in the first three quarters of 22 has increased by almost 49% and every second new building now has a heat pump, which in my opinion is very positive. Heat pumps are definitely part of the future, but whether the way with natural refrigerants is the final form I dare to doubt. In the end, as you have already rightly said the subject is very complex and there are many different opinions, it will be very present for a long time and the technology will inevitably have to evolve. But now another question, why do you just nibe before the competition like watsco, daikin, mitsubishi etc?
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•@LouisBlm1911 and on we go. (You know, that's exactly why I like this platform, because I and you certainly also get other insights, expertise (here just from you) and opinion - simply ingenious added value)... so back to the topic: Interesting attitude to propane from you. For me, the question would be whether the consumer or the buyer of such systems know the difference from before? That is certainly the difference in the end, so the question of whether they know a before or after. For me, this is now in so far a super hint from you, since I can also ask completely different questions on a technical level on this subject, when I am then confronted with various offers in the fall at the latest, since with us the decision regarding heat pump is also pending. I just think that the decision with the natural coolant has collided with the now fire-important and rapid expansion. You may be right, and if this is a problem in the medium term, it must of course be further improved or improved. In the end, possibly with longer deadlines etc. In the end, however, I find it interesting whether it is precisely the use of natural coolants that is keeping the Far Asian manufacturers off the market in the first place? Regarding your question: When I joined NIBE, I was too currently involved with heat pumps myself. That was already during Corona (no, I didn't have time, I was busy at work, but in the evening I was so tired that I could at least distract myself with the topic...). And of course I passed many manufacturers. At the same time, when it came to investing, the search for a "green" investment was important to me again. This is where NIBE scored. The next step was to analyze growth, opportunities and risks. Again. I liked NIBE quite a bit here. The final argument was the supply chain and European integration of NIBE. No dependence on Asian or American companies and regulations (such as trade restrictions etc.). This then brought me to the decision making of NIBE from experience of Corona and Donald "Lying Baron" Trump. I hope this is somewhat comprehensible to you? 😅 At the end again, or before it continues with our conversation: Thank you for taking the time for the "discussion", so the exchange with me. 🤝
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•@InvestmentPapa 90% of the buyers don't know any difference, because they are not familiar with the subject matter, or can't, because the heat pump+functionality is super complex. The buyers also have no comparative value, because this is usually the first heat pump, they buy and accordingly recognizes the "simple buyer" no difference. Jz times briefly in between I finds great that you are so busy with heat pumps, for most it means only oh that sounds good we do. If you have any technical questions I can answer them for you, that's no problem. I'll give you a final tip for later, when you have bought one and have it installed. have it installed by a refrigeration engineer and not by someone who only has a refrigeration license. The shortage of skilled workers is gigantic due to the high demand and accordingly there are offers where people from other professions can be retrained (2 weeks) and then install the system as "skilled personnel", for comparison my training as a refrigeration engineer goes 3.5 years. The people with the 2-week training are indeed cheaper, but the system must be reworked as a rule by trained refrigeration engineers. Well that is in any case a huge problem this decision, because all existing refrigeration systems must be completely replaced, for large companies no problem, but for so smaller as zb the butcher, a bakery, a flower store, a pub, etc. that have not even just 10,000 € lying around to buy a new system. They depend on cooling for their existence, which I find very problematic and not well thought out, telling small companies that they have to do this, because they will never be able to afford it and will close down. Keeping Asian manufacturers out of our market doesn't work like that either, daikin is currently building a huge factory in Brandenburg. All the larger German companies are also being bought up by ammis. In our country, heat pumps are being bought like crazy, and they all don't miss out on the turnover. the entry is very understandable, especially in the area of growth, nibe will score strongly in the next few years. I understand what you were thinking with the supply chains, that's also a great approach, but I can tell you from practical experience, that doesn't work here. The individual components of a heat pump come from all over the world, as do the pipes. As unfortunate as that is, I think the only thing produced in Germany is the cover. But that's not just the case with nibe, it's the same with every refrigeration manufacturer. I'm happy to take the time, but the bottom line is that a factual conversation about this topic will get us both further 🤝
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