1Semana·

BEWARE OF THE DANGER! - How the equity pension makes you poorer than you think

It's absolutely crazy. The so-called Riester pension 2.0 is in the starting blocks and is everything we didn't want from an "equity pension". I'm not a news portal, so I don't want to go into too much detail about every option and what variants there are, but I'll come straight to the point of why the planned ETF pension is bad for you and is misleading you.


In a nutshell, the equity-based pension has a main selling point that the original Riester pension - which was invested in insurance and government debt instead of ETFs - also had in order to lure customers: state subsidies. In concrete terms, this means that if you pay in €1800 a year, the state will give you an extra €540. Isn't that great? The whole thing is also tax-privileged. And these were precisely the main arguments that aroused people's greed back then, lured them into the Riester pension and made Carsten Maschmeyer an ultra-multi-millionaire. Just like back then, the (neo)-broker industry around Trade Republic, Scalable and Smartbroker is already happy as a lark about the many poor souls who will fall for the ETF pension portfolios.


But ETFs are a good investment, what's the problem now?


Yes, this time it's not so much about what to invest in, but about how. But it's also about what to invest in. So far, no list has emerged with a complete overview of the assets that can be invested in. For comedy reasons, I would find it incredibly funny if you could invest your pension in an MSCI Russia at a later date and force the state to invest in Russia. However, if I were the state and really hated my citizens, I would only declare European investments permissible. That would also be peak comedy, but at our expense. Realistically, it will be interesting to see whether it is possible to invest your pension exclusively in another country, e.g. through an S&P500.


As I said, however, the problem lies in the circumstances surrounding it. Namely, with a private pension of this kind, a) you must not be fooled by the parameters that apply NOW and b) the parameters are not good even now.


For one thing, nominal promises are always such a thing anyway. The €540 you get in 2026 will have a completely different value than the €540 you get in 2060 thanks to inflation. "But Soprano, surely the amount of the subsidy can be adjusted" Yes, and you know what else can be adjusted? The age limits. And this is where it gets really bad.


So far, the plan is that you don't see your money again until you're 65. And after that, there is inevitably a payout plan until you are at least 85 years old. And this is the problem. With private pension provision, there is virtually no provision at all for you to decide your own retirement age. And that is a gigantic scam. It's not just about self-determination and that the start of payment is not guaranteed forever at the age of 65. But leaving aside the fact that the start of payments could also be increased to 70, 75, 80, 105 years with a simple majority in the Bundestag - you also have to look at the mortality tables of the insurance companies to be able to estimate the probability of getting that old at all.


If we just assume the best case scenario and agree everything so that you receive the money as early as possible, this means that it starts at the age of 65 and you receive the last installment at the age of 85.


How many of you will actually live to be 85?


That depends on whether you are a man or a woman (or one of the many other genders that exist, of course). In any case, men are only about half as likely to reach these high ages as women. The chance of a man born in 1980 reaching the age of 85 is estimated at 35%, compared to around 60% for women, which means that men are systematically at a disadvantage when it comes to retirement provision. This means that the majority of men will not see the money they pay into their pension again.


What happens in the event of death?


Although spouses can inherit the pension in full, children cannot. If both parents have died, they will only receive further payments for a "guaranteed period". However, if there is still too much capital left in the pension at the end of this guaranteed period, the state and the insurance company will split your money. Practical, isn't it? Incidentally, this is also the case with the current Riester pension and the insurance companies enjoy over EUR 3 billion a year from insured persons who die too young.


This is also the disadvantage compared to a normal custody account. You have little freedom and no flexibility, and if you die at an inopportune moment, some of your money is simply gone. And let's be honest, the sums that can be put into an ETF pension are limited and simply too low to live on properly in old age. The state is simply protecting itself against someone coming along who already knows that he is perfectly healthy and has half a million in old-age provision, which the state would then have to subsidize.


Let's draw another conclusion:


Someone who is 25 years old today and pays in for 40 years receives a subsidy of €21,600 from the state over the entire period, which is not secured by purchasing power, as well as a tax deferral - which was recently abolished for accumulating ETFs. In return, you are obliged to continue working under the boot of the federal government until it grants you the grace of retirement. And if you really want to see your money again in full, you have to manage to live on against the actuarial probability, in the best case forever. Sounds fair, doesn't it?


These ETF pensions would be a great thing if the current pay-as-you-go statutory pension were to be abolished in its entirety and the capital-based pension were to replace it completely. But the new Riester pension is not to be recommended simply as an additional way of investing money in state systems that you will probably never see again. What do you think?


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One more addendum: I've received a few comments that the new system is good or at least a step in the right direction. I would really ask: why? For decades, a large part of the tax benefits were available when saving in ETFs - until the advance tax lump sum was introduced. A privilege is taken away from you with the left hand and given back to you with the right hand - except that tax-free saving in ETFs is no longer possible in any amount.


And to be honest, I also thought that in a forum for financial freedom, everyone would agree that, in principle, every citizen should be able to decide for themselves when they no longer want to work. Why is it so stigmatized when people want to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives?

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86 Comentarios

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I want to remain flexible when it comes to my money and have decided to do without help from the state
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@Simpson King and maker
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@Simpson I see it the same way in Switzerland. I don't pay into the 3A pillar either, even though I would benefit from lower taxes. But I can only withdraw the money in the 3A pillar if I become self-employed, build a house or emigrate. And even then, I don't know whether you can withdraw all the money at once. And the federal government can also tighten the requirements and conditions at any time, which it is currently planning to do.

No thanks, for me the 3A pillar is a bait. I prefer to pay more tax, but I have full control over the money I invest and know that I can sell shares or withdraw my dividends at any time.
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@Simpson best man. I'm also of the same opinion, where the state puts five euros in our right pocket, it literally takes twice as much out of our left pocket.

Flexibility and access at any time is much more important to me than the few euros that the state "gives" me 🥱
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I no longer trust the state with anything, which is why I don't trust 👍🏻
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@Simpson Definitely. I have just experienced in the case of a death with regard to subsidized pension insurance that the contributions are "WAY" without replacement. So who actually concludes such contracts? Creepy. On the other hand, you have to take a look at all the turnip noses that populate the streets here today. People are simply completely uninterested in such things and knowledge, it's only their own business. RTL special interest channels, cell phones and Instagram are much more important. I keep asking myself when our education system is going to start teaching the next generation at least a few basic practical skills for life, from tax returns to the basics of economics and money.
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@Simpson Why not both? For those who make it here, €1800 a year + Gelt from the state is a nice test, isn't it? Only at the end can you say which was better. Play the same with a RoboAdviser 🤣😂🤪
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I think the way you write here is brutal opinion making.
Let's be completely honest:
There are quite a few people in our bubble who forgo consumption in order to build up assets so that they don't have to work until they're 70. I count myself among them.
That makes us more harmful to society than this share pension.

We need as many people as possible to work successfully for as long as possible so that our children are as well off as we are.
My generation hasn't learned this properly and we're just looking at where we want to go on vacation next.

I think this type of pension is absolutely the right direction for the state's needs.
Until now, we've always been accused of not changing anything. Now things are being reformed and the bullshit ranting continues.
Sorry that you're just getting that. But this negative culture really gets on my nerves.
Because this negative culture makes you sick and makes you die early 😉
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@Wealth-Accelerator I also think this system is good and I'm glad that a government is finally starting to do something about it. You've put it in a nutshell and you'll always find people who think everything politics does is shit, whether good or bad.
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@Wealth-Accelerator Lots of interesting points.
1. what makes you accuse a private individual who is not running for political office of "opinion making"? What do I personally gain from warning people?
2. the narrative that working hard and paying taxes would benefit society has actually been overcome by the younger generation. On the one hand, it is possible to come to Germany at any time and dip into the pot of prosperity as deeply as you like - on the other hand, young people are leaving Germany because they are only expected to pay and work, but receive nothing in return.
I think it's good that you criticize your own generation for focusing too much on pleasure rather than the common good. This self-criticism is important, surely more people should have thought that way.
3 Yes, it is good to change things, but the changes are not radical enough. The longer reforms are delayed, the more painful they become. This change would have been necessary 30 years ago - it is also good for people who are 50 today - but it doesn't help a 20-year-old with his worries at all.
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@Soprano then just call it propaganda.
I care about this country and what can I personally do for it?
At least once I can create a positive atmosphere in my environment. Whether at work, in the club, in the family or anonymously online.
Because it doesn't matter who coaches our club or is on the board. The current mood will always bring you down. Period.
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@Soprano I have to agree with @Wealth-Accelerator.

Far too unbalanced, extremely pessimistic, whenever assumptions are made, the worst is immediately assumed.
And then there's the title "How the equity pension will make you poorer than you think" and the picture of granny rummaging in the garbage can.
Stylistic flourishes such as: "under the boot of the federal government"...

Statistical and factual inaccuracies (as described in my comment below) that underline your narrative.

Sure, you can see it as "criticism", but not as "factual criticism".
The text is too black for that, to say the least:
I couldn't write it more pessimistically if I tried.
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@TotallyLost But I am not a journalist, as I write at the beginning. To hear how great the reform is and what advantages it has:

- public broadcasting services worth 10 billion euros
- 328 members of parliament in the grand coalition
- The entire finance and insurance industry

To highlight the negative sides, you have a small blog post on the edge of the internet. What is the added value if I gloss over everything again? What is stopping you from forming your own balanced opinion with the information available?
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@Wealth-Accelerator It's not a propaganda campaign, what would I gain from it? I don't earn any money from it and I'm not standing for election. If I was just dissatisfied, it would be easier for me to leave the country and leave Germany to its fate. Instead, I write long posts - that also takes effort. What could be the reason for this, apart from the fact that I am trying to help the community by explaining what no one else would explain?
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@Soprano That's not true, I don't just have you.
If I want tendentious reactionary "reporting" then I could just turn on Julian Reichelt.
I can also read the Junge Freiheit or the TAZ.

But I don't, because the truth usually lies in the middle and that has nothing to do with sugar-coating things.

Of course you're not a journalist and don't have to measure yourself against their standards if you don't want to.
But if it's not journalistic, then what is it? Opinion, strongly colored, undifferentiated opinion.
And that tends to contribute less to the formation of my opinion.
On the contrary, such one-sided positions always set off alarm bells for me, they tend to put me off and I bet I'm not the only one.
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@TotallyLost You certainly won't find anything about pensions at Reichelt, it doesn't attract clicks and emotionally they don't care whether you are financially free in old age or not. For them, the most important thing is that Austria joins NATO :-)

But joking aside. You act as if opinion is a bad thing per se. But everything is opinion. There are no such neutral reports, there are only people who deliberately want to mislead.

In the case of a blog post, however, this is not only nonsensical, but even counterproductive. You read a blog precisely because you want to know the author's opinion and not because you hope that ten different points of view will be highlighted at the same time.

When you read Mathma Gandhi's diary, you don't say "Wait a minute, this is all written from the point of view of a religious Indian lawyer ... where is the perspective of the British colonial administration? That's completely one-sided" ... Yes, it is, but that's kind of the point.
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@Soprano you can do that.
But for me, posts like that are nothing.

It doesn't have to be, there seem to be people who like it.
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@Soprano I find fault with the choice of words. But you're welcome to do so, because that's your decision.
I have decided for myself that I will point out that I don't need this when I am confronted with an unobjective, pessimistic presentation of facts.
Because in my environment, this takes on proportions that I consider harmful to society.
So we both have our opinions and that's that.
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I understand why your post is well received - lots of emotion, lots of pointed points. But in terms of content, you're not so much dissecting the ETF pension here as building a distorted picture and then shooting at it.

The central mistake runs through your entire text: You measure a subsidized pension scheme by the standards of a free portfolio - and then wonder why it doesn't look the same.

There is no subsidy without conditions. Period.

A €540 subsidy on a €1,800 deposit is a 30% "instant return". Risk-free. Before taxes. Before market performance. That's not a marketing gimmick, that's massive leverage. The fact that you're talking down inflation is frankly eyewash - inflation eats up your unsponsored portfolio just as much. The relevant comparison is: subsidized vs. unsubsidized. And you consistently fail to do this properly.

Then you construct absurd scenarios for ETF selection (Russia, forced to Europe etc.), although it is completely foreseeable how such products are regulated: broadly diversified, clear risk classes, no leverage products. In other words, exactly what is considered a sensible basis anyway - e.g. an MSCI World or S&P 500.

And no: just because someone could theoretically save in some exotic ETF privately, the state does not "invest" geopolitically. That is simply a category error.

When it comes to inheritance, things are presented particularly dramatically. "The money is gone" is simply not true. In the savings phase, capital can generally be inherited, only the subsidy is subject to conditions or is partially repaid. This is also logical: the state supports your retirement provision - not your estate. But even then, this subsidy will have generated a return by then. Completely ignored.

Things get even more skewed when it comes to life expectancy. The fact that not everyone lives to 85 is not a scandal, but exactly the principle of pension and insurance systems. You present this as a disadvantage, but completely ignore the fact that you get rid of the longevity risk in return. A deposit does not protect you from turning 95 and using up your money. A pension does. That's not a bug, that's the feature.

And now comes the point that completely defeats your argument: Look at international systems.

In the USA with the 401(k) or in Switzerland with funded pillars, exactly the same applies: tax advantages in exchange for limited access. You can't just say "I'm dissolving this now" at the age of 45. When the markets fell under Donald Trump, many people also complained about falling 401(k) accounts - but nobody would have thought of saying: "Then we'll abolish the system because I can't access it at any time."

It is precisely this restriction that is the price of the subsidy. Completely normal internationally.

The side-swipe at brokers such as Trade Republic or Scalable Capital fits the picture: sounds good, but doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny. Heavily regulated pension products are often less attractive for such providers than free custody accounts. This is more of a punditry than an analysis.

And yes - there are valid points of criticism:
Design, costs, potential restrictions, political interference. All fair. But to turn it into a "gigantic scam" is simply exaggerated.

In the end, it's pretty simple - and that's where it becomes almost ironic:

You're on a forum for financial freedom - and you act like someone is taking that freedom away from you.

They're not.

This product does not stand in the way of your free portfolio. It does not replace it. It does not prohibit it. It does not force you to do so.

It is simply an additional building block for people who want to take promotion with them and accept restrictions in return.

If you don't want it, that's absolutely fine. Then don't use it.

But stop pretending it's a scam - it's just another tool. And you criticize it for not being what it never wanted to be.
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@ReinhardtNachwuchs Strong counterattack! I agree with you!
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@ReinhardtNachwuchs I'm surprised you didn't read my latest post, you were one of the reasons why I wrote it in the first place. Especially after you posted 10 different comments trying to foist pro-Riester arguments on people.
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@Soprano I stumbled across your post because it was at the top of the feed, and I criticized it objectively - because it mixes Riester and AVD and is based on false assumptions. I didn't actively search for your new post, I'm not stalking you. I'm sorry if you felt neglected.
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For 1800€ per year 540€ subsidy. Can probably be paid out for the purchase of a property.

I will invest this €1800 a year in the model - that's €150 a month and therefore only a fraction of what I generally invest. 30% return and tax relief. Plus the return on the invested asset, which hopefully doesn't have to be European.

I think that's great and I'm looking forward to the start of the promotion.
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@HoldTheMike My situation is similar to yours. My previous financial provision was (now) based on my own initiative.

Depending on what the banks/brokers offer, I will add this AV account and pay in the necessary contribution for the subsidy. Of course, there is a risk that the state will "change the rules", but it can also do that with the other part.

I think using it for a property, or more precisely for residential purposes, is a good solution - better than building society savings contracts. This could also be the age-appropriate conversion of the existing property (bathroom at ground level, wider doors, ...).

I don't think it's perfect and it has many weaknesses, but it is by far a step in the right direction. Establishing the capital market for the masses, because what could be better than employees owning a share in our (and other) companies? Being a shareholder.
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As a matter of principle, I never take part in any government schemes. The people in charge are always driven by the here and now and adapt the rules as they see fit. You are trapped in the system, inflexible and at their mercy. Our state is not interested in the independence of its citizens.
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@Brazzo_Muc Oh right, the state doesn't care about its citizens. The citizens are THE state - you, me, the guy next door. We elect it, we finance it, we are it. But yes, we have no interest in ourselves. Very conclusive.
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@financial_wizard_xasbb It should be the way you describe it. But I don't experience a state that acts in the interests of its citizens. If you disagree, that's wonderful. I was, am and always will be the necessary distance to the state because I am mainly treated by the state as a cash cow and voting cattle.
@Brazzo_Muc 'The state treats me like a cash cow' - and who is the state? You, your neighbors, your joint decisions. In a democracy, the milking cow milks itself to a certain extent. That only changes when you stop seeing the state as an alien entity.
As soon as you become part of the state apparatus, the priorities change. Then it is primarily about protecting the state and maintaining its systems and ability to function. The state uses various means to do this. The welfare of the individual citizen is of secondary importance.
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I think this is wrong;
"Spouses can inherit the pension in full, but children cannot. If both parents have died, they only receive further payments for a "guarantee period"."

One of the main reasons for the reform and the introduction of ETF custody accounts is precisely the criticism of the lack of inheritability.
A custody account with a broker (such as Trade Republic or Scalable, which are mentioned in the text) is special property in legal terms.
According to the current state of discussions on the reform law, the credit balance in the ETF custody account should be fully inheritable in the event of death. This means that the remaining capital goes to the heirs (including children).
At least that is my understanding.

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You're making a mistake in your thinking:
Yes, the probability of a boy born today reaching the age of 85 is 35% to 40%.

BUT:
The older you are, the higher the probability of reaching 85. Anyone who is already 65 today has already left the risks of youth (accidents, early illnesses) behind them. For a 65-year-old man, the chance of reaching 85 is often already over 50%.
And the trend is rising.

Personal opinion:
Actually, I couldn't care less as I live in Austria, we don't even have a €1 tax-free allowance and higher capital gains tax.
I would jump for joy if we got something like that here.

Fucking Piefke, sneak away.
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@TotallyLost Yes, but it's not an error in reasoning but simply a statistical anomaly. I am aware of the whole thing. It's the same phenomenon as the myth that people in the Middle Ages only lived to be 30 on average - that was only due to extreme infant mortality, otherwise people easily lived to be 60-70.

So yes, anyone who is 84 today has a good chance of living to be 85. The younger you are, the greater the variance, i.e. the greater the uncertainty as to whether you will live significantly shorter or longer than expected.

And yes, I also don't know how Austria manages to be so hostile to shareholders.
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For me, it's a goodie that I take with me. I don't understand your criticism in many cases.

On the ETF selection
From what I've found so far, the only restriction is the risk class <=5. That would include the usual country ETFs, factor ETFs and probably theme ETFs, as long as they are not leveraged. Which ones you get will probably depend on trading venues and providers, as always.

You are criticizing the fact that the maximum promotion is not high enough. So you're saying that I don't want the cake because it's not enough?

On inheritance: see the FAQ from the Ministry of Finance:
Can be inherited, but subsidies must be repaid if it does not pass to a spouse's retirement savings account.
Only life annuities cannot be inherited.

Is the retirement savings account the "happy-go-lucky idea"? Nope.
From my point of view, the state shoves money up your ass, and the only condition is "don't spend it too early, that's so you have something later, otherwise I'll take it away from you again. It's similar with the American 401k.

Could there be more to it? Yes.
Are we being prevented from investing ourselves? Nope.
If you don't want to, don't do it. This thing is not there to make you rich, but so that people with little can have a little more.

Of course the state can take it all away from us, increase age limits..., presumably, but not quite as arbitrarily as you think. If the mortality table were to be raised to 95, citizens would probably have the option of going to the Constitutional Court.
With arguments like that, you could say that it's not worth investing because the state could expropriate us at any time.

Your arguments are somehow a lot of "would have, could have".

If the offers are good, it might even be worth investing more than the funding limit, because as far as I understand it, the additional investment up to 500 should work in a similar way to private pension schemes.

My biggest criticism would be that it seems to be overengeneed because they want to make everyone happy again.
But in my view, this thing is not for people like you and me, but for people like my sister, who got herself a Trade Republic on my advice and who I'm afraid still hasn't invested anything to date.
These people don't need complex products either. Just an ACWI and a withdrawal plan.
After that, they can concentrate again on what they are good at and what they enjoy. Nothing to do with finance.
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@SchlaubiSchlumpf The most important point of criticism is that you can't stop working, but for me that's the point of saving/investing, otherwise I wouldn't do it at all. I don't need handouts either, just fewer compulsory contributions in the first place. And the tax saving I get with this thing is the same tax saving I already had before it was taken away from me by the advance lump sum.
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@Soprano You can stop working. You just can't access this money. But you could, for example, draw on other money until you reach the retirement savings account.

But I think in the end it always comes down to the fact that we are not the target group, as we have invested a lot anyway and are in a position to think about early retirement. I think the target group is more likely to be those who are now worried about having to work until 75 financially (although they can't) because their pension is too small.

I also think the early lump sum is nonsense. The tax system is generally very unfortunate. Key interest rate is higher? Then you can deduct more of your stock market profits. Two etfs have been merged by the provider? Joa tax event, no. Very arbitrary. The tax-free amount is also strange. If I only save in one etf all the time and there is no advance lump sum, I would actually have to shift a bit every year to reduce my tax in 35 years.

I believe that we need a functioning state. And it doesn't run on air and love. But we Germans somehow make everything complicated. To please everyone.

At the end of the day, the upfront lump sum when investing is probably not my biggest problem. But I also find it very irritating that a custody account is in the red without any costs because the turn of the year with custody account assets is tax-effective 🙈
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ah the revival of the good old life insurance that you didn't get until 65 today 67+ and then turned pale at what came out.
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Thanks for the analysis. Completely correct. Anyone who gives money to the state is stupid. Quite simply. It's like giving a drug addict another 50 euros for the "last" shot.
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@market_maestro_2783 You are not giving money to the state here. The state is giving you money. Your money is with a broker and will not be used for the 2027-2099 federal budget.
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😮‍💨 I don't know - I was rather positive until now...
But you've looked into it, can you have the money paid out, for example, if you want to buy a property at some point?
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@Klein-Anleger
Yes, you can.
You can even see the subsidy as a free investment loan if you exit early, because then you only have to pay back the subsidy.
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@Klein-Anleger You're asking the hard questions again. In principle, it is not impossible, but it depends on the provider of your pension product. Some allow it, others exclude it according to the contractual agreements. So for the time being, there is no uniform regulation. In any case, as is typical in Germany, you can be sure that it is associated with bureaucracy and is not straightforward.
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@Klein-Anleger As far as I understand it, the law stipulates that you have the option of converting it into a Wohnriester or using the deposit as a loan repayment, as with the Riester. Without repaying any allowances or tax benefits. As with the wohnriester, however, a separate "account" is created where you have to pay taxes on it later in old age or when you retire. And here comes the interesting point for me personally. I plan to use the retirement savings account in exactly the same way. As I have 1 child, I get an extra €300 allowance. All these allowances also generate interest and when my fixed interest rate on the building loan expires after 10 years, I can use my retirement savings account to pay off the remaining loan. Even if it requires some paperwork, it's still worth it in my eyes.
In figures:
Paid in after 10 years:
18.000€
With allowances (€8,400) and an average annual interest rate of just 5% (approx. €7,900)
I then have €34,300. So an increase of 90%. I think it tastes good when you consider the lower risk, and of course it tastes even better if you get a return of more than 5%😅. And if the market situation is bad, you can wait with the repayment, so you're flexible again.
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@Soprano You are confusing this with the Riester pension. There are no contracts for the AVD yet. But there will be a deposit. And the assets paid in are clearly your assets. Including the return. It's just that you only receive the allowances in old age.
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@Klein-Anleger In my experience, speed is often the decisive factor when buying a good deal on the real estate market. A seller goes to the notary with the person who makes the best offer and can also quickly arrange financing or has the money as equity. If I then have to submit an application for disbursement or the bank has to make any additional calculations to value the state product, it becomes difficult again and I probably lose out in the battle for the good deal.
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I no longer participate in any state products / subsidies either. The basic idea is good, but the design is once again disadvantageous. A small subsidy buys the right to have a massive say over the capital. The conditions are not fixed, but can be adjusted almost at will. Thank you, but I'm out with this offer... 😄
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Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but what you are doing is stirring up public opinion against a product that is significantly better than what the state has offered so far.

However, I also have to criticize your research. There are indeed scenarios in which you can get your capital without being subsidized:

Outside of the monthly benefits, for example, the following benefits are also permissible without a subsidy:

in the course of the accumulation phase as a retirement pension home amount as part of the homeowner pension subsidy within the meaning of Section 92a EStG (so-called "Wohn-Riester") or
in the form of a one-off partial capital payment of up to 30 percent of the capital available at the start of the payout phase or
in the form of a payout to settle a small amount pension.

You are also wrong about inheritability:

With life annuity products, a ten- or twenty-year annuity guarantee period can be agreed in future for the benefit of surviving dependants. If an annuity guarantee period has been agreed, the payouts after death can be inherited until the end of the annuity guarantee period. In the case of a payout plan, assets that have not yet been paid out can be inherited.

However, in the event of the taxpayer's death, the tax relief (allowances and any amounts determined separately from the special expenses deduction) must be repaid by the heir. However, in the event of death, the pension plan assets that have not yet been paid out can be transferred without deductions to a pension plan contract in the name of the surviving spouse.

I recommend reading the official notification from the Federal Government:

https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/FAQ/reform-der-privaten-altersvorsorge.html
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@TradingHase But that sounds complicated. If it's a normal custody account, you can move it or liquidate it at any time if you need the money. I think you should think carefully about whether to swap promotion for flexibility.
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@NichtRelevant You should definitely consider that. But it was no different with the Riester pension.
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@NichtRelevant You don't have to put all your money into the AVD. And 30% on your savings rate is already good.
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@ReinhardtNachwuchs Of course, you wouldn't pay everything into this construct. But it's out of the question for me anyway, as I'm already 'older' (51) and no longer working.

My skepticism probably stems from the fact that I have always made my own provisions. Without a state pension, without Riester or building sponsors, etc. As a result, I was always as flexible as possible and was able to use capital to set up a company and buy property when I needed it without having to take any regulations into account.

Of course, everyone is free to make their own decisions. I think it simply depends on what you are planning for your life in the long term.
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@NichtRelevant Like me, you would still have 14 years to save, except that I am still working. The payout starts at 65.
Everyone has to work out whether they want to take the subsidy with them or use their capital freely. Again, there is no general right or wrong.
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@TradingHase That's right. The main thing is to think about the issue in detail before you sign. The bad thing is that many people simply do something without having thought it through in detail.
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@NichtRelevant Yes, I agree with you. Many people hear the buzzword "promotion" and don't give it much thought, which can lead to them doing something wrong.
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Your contribution is really good and reflects my thoughts on this. For myself, I have decided to stick to my plan without the state. Without the state, I can theoretically "retire" at 60, whether the state wants me to or not. And the assets can be inherited. 🍀🤷‍♀️
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Not everything is great about it, but let's be honest, the retirement savings account is just an add-on, the real money is in your own flexible custody account. Paying in €25 a month and getting a €25 allowance is ok. What's more, as far as I know, you can pay out 30% directly when you retire. And the aforementioned advantage when buying real estate for your own use. So it's not all shit. What's more, it's still better than letting your money rot away in the hopefully non-contributory Riester contract.
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I think it's good to read other views as well. I wasn't aware of the issue of passing it on to children. At the moment, you mainly hear positive things about AVD. That's why it makes sense to at least know the negative arguments.

For my part, I will move my Riester to the AVD and then put it in the cheapest ACWI, if there is one to choose from. This will save me a massive amount of money compared to my current provider.

Then I'll have a look at what ETFs are investable. My plan was to buy the riskiest product (class 5). Maybe an AI or quantum ETF. I think the 30% subsidy means I can take 30% more risk.
Besides, these are also my taxes that are being distributed. I would like to get a little bit back.
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Classical SPD scam, as always. Greetings to Carsten M. go out.
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I am not German myself, so the issue only affects me marginally. But I don't see a problem with certain points.

1,800 per year corresponds to €150 per month. I assume that this is the maximum amount you are allowed to pay in.

We also have a three-pillar pension system in Austria, with a strong focus on the first pillar (state pension entitlement). Then there is the occupational pension scheme, which is about to be changed so that in future you can also pay into it as a private individual.

Last but not least, there is private pension provision (in your case the Riester system).

I had several products in the second pillar, and quite honestly, I think they're the purest scam. They managed to generate a loss in the period from 2020 to 2025, or at best exit with zero. I would therefore only pay in more here if there were clear legal guarantees.

I'm betting heavily on the third pillar. Why? Because I believe that it is the one that will always exist. I invest in both insurance products and ETFs, which I save for without any subsidies. I would advise everyone - especially when it comes to pensions - to spread their money across different asset classes and providers, including the new Riester system. Nobody has a crystal ball and can say what the future holds.

In my opinion, anyone who has paid into the system for 45 years without interruption has done their bit. If the retirement age is raised further, I will have made enough provisions with my privately invested money to be independent. I therefore only see the state pension as an add-on
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Unfortunately, I can understand every point. Unfortunately, I didn't expect anything else. It's bureaucratic nonsense that comes at the complete expense of autonomy and flexibility. Everything to do with the state and pensions is a red rag to me. Lars can keep the 540. I'll do without.

Actually - roughly speaking - it works like this. Save, invest, let your assets work. Then at some point, hit the brakes and enjoy life, depending on the amount of assets, transfer them to a VV GmbH or foundation and make a will to pass them on to your wife and children.

If you manage to go even 80% of the way - which is a bone-headed job if you don't inherit anything - by your mid-50s you will have forgotten that there is a state pension and can enjoy another 15 good years in relative independence. Because let's be honest, at 72 you're plagued by all kinds of ailments. You won't be doing any more whitewater rafting just like that.
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I think the idea of the new AV-Depot is a good one. Not everyone has the time or wants to deal with pension provision.
You can probably cancel the contract, but you will have to pay back all the allowances.
The deposit can be used to pay off the owner-occupied property, etc.
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First of all, I agree with you - be careful with everything in which the state is involved and gives you something in return.
As with all eligible products, the lack of flexibility bothers me. I'm still considering putting €25 a month into it and topping it up with the subsidy and taking the tax advantage with me. However, the main goal remains to take care of yourself without government help or influence
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Unfortunately, you're right in that case. But that's exactly what the new pension is designed for, the state has to get money in. One question that is important to me is what happens if you invest in a dist etf. How are the dividends treated and taxed.
LG Matze
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Thank you for your contribution. I think you've captured it quite well.

Government programs usually suffer from a lack of flexibility - as is the case here.

I want to decide for myself when I stop working (for me it was at the age of 49). I want to have the money at my disposal when I need it or when I want it. A payout plan or pension determined by the state is always a bet on your own 'longevity'. If I live a long time, I'm not only lucky to live longer, I also get more money out of it. If I die earlier, I'm the fool (double 😅, so to speak). If I die earlier, I'd at least like to pass on the capital stock I've built up to my children.

So it's worth throwing these 'bonuses' in the form of additional payments to the wind and remaining flexible and independent. As a young person, who knows what their life will look like in a few decades? Of course, it could be the classic pension situation with a typical retirement age. But it could also be that I emigrate to the Caribbean at 34 and then need the money from my ETFs for a completely different life plan.
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It bothers me that you have to pay tax on your own deposits!
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I don't even trust the state up to the tip of my nose. Anyone who wants to is welcome to fall for it once again.
I will continue to invest in ETFs on my own responsibility for the rest of my life and, of course, for my children.
The state could help us/me by significantly increasing the saver's allowance, making profits tax-free after one year of holding, abolishing the solidarity surcharge, etc. But it doesn't. But it doesn't do that.
The state has no use for financially independent citizens. It is so difficult to steer them in the desired direction.
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Oh well. When this starts next year, I'll only have 12 years left to pay in anyway. I'll take them with me and switch my Riester pension from DWS. it couldn't be worse. I hope that you can at least buy something on a par with the MSCI World. Then I might even see a green light after 20 years when I look into it.
Overall, however, I rely on my portfolio and my pension for my retirement provision and don't need that at all. When I die, I don't care what happens to it, because then I'm gone and I don't care what's left.
My basic preliminary conclusion on this AVD is: too little, too late, but better than nothing at all.
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I won't really think about it until the products come onto the market next year.
A 30% "subsidy" from the state is not bad in itself, plus it's probably tax deductible and there's no withholding tax in the "savings phase" either.
When you retire, you can decide whether there is a guarantee (the size of the Riester scam) or that the capital will be used up by 85. There is also a one-off 30% withdrawal at retirement. Which brings us to the "disadvantages":
1. payout only from 65 (will probably be 70...)
2. one-time 30%, use up the rest until 85 or just as a guarantee until death (have fun going out with +-0)
I will probably save in the SPDR MSCI All Country World $SPYY
and continue my savings plan with TR as usual, possibly reducing it by €150.
My wife is 7 years younger 😄.
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I don't like the age limit either, but as a small additional "longevity insurance" it's tempting with the subsidy. You can live off your normal deposit until you reach the age of 80 or so without any deductions. 😄
A few days ago there was a "Europe comparison" on n-tv about how other countries are doing with pensions. It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be, but in other countries the situation is similar, with the result that the respective state has to make extreme contributions to its pension system so that it doesn't go down the drain.
I think the solution we have now is a reasonably good approach, and perhaps there will be one or two adjustments before we get to that point.
Everyone who writes and is represented here probably doesn't have a major problem with private pension provision anyway and is reasonably well positioned with the investments and strategies that everyone has for themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be on a platform like this.
In my opinion, the state should only work on ensuring that savers and hard-working citizens don't always have the feeling that they are being punished, but that what they are doing is good, right and profitable.
If that happens again, it will also lift the mood in the country again, let's see if the new retirement savings account can make a contribution to this.
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As I understand it, you can leave voluntarily up to a certain age. Then you have to pay back the subsidies, which could be seen as a free securities loan. For me, that's the only reason not to put this crap aside immediately.
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