5Mon

@UndNun I'm not banking on closing my pension gap with investments, but with my career.

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5Mon

@G_with_shares It's definitely something nice too!

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5Mon

@Shadow_Trades_Now Don't plan anymore, just do your best, the whole thing should give you peace of mind and satisfaction and not "I haven't reached my goal", in the end you just miss the 400k, for example, but it's still enough, but you're not happy because you haven't reached your "milestone".

Even my milestones so far haven't made me "happier".

But I think that 400k is possible, why not, if fate wants it that way 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Thomas@UndNun

5Mon

@Gerit If it works, very good!
Here in Germany, that's probably out of reach for the vast majority of people.
Do you live in Singapore? Years ago, I saw an article about how well Singapore is doing to provide for its residents in old age. Thanks to great support, 70% or more of the residents ended up with their own apartment.
And it wasn't unusual to start with a small apartment and improve it over the course of your life if you can afford it.

You can only dream of such paradisiacal circumstances here.

Is that still the case in Singapore?

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DerJude@DerJude

5Mon

@UndNun Well, it's not impossible. I'm now 29, have invested almost 140k and am worth 192k.
I only graduated from secondary school and then did my vocational diploma. Then I did an apprenticeship and worked my way up as an international service technician. I also worked my ass off and put in a lot of overtime. The job is great fun.

Find a job you love and you don't have to work anymore. Money was always just the positive side effect.

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Schaaed@Schaaed

5Mon

@Gerit No, you should still include inflation, i.e. approximately plus approx. 3-5% per year, so that the 20000 euros will still be 20000 euros in 5 or 10 years!!! So years t+1 21000, t+22500, ..... etc..

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CashBurner 🔥@DonkeyInvestor

5Mon

@UndNun In Singapore, there are definitely tax advantages for residents, including tax-free dividends on REITs

In addition, the standard of living is also much higher there, and you can't simply immigrate - that certainly plays a major role in the topic of "property".

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5Mon

2 million in ETFs and 1 million in crypto

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CashBurner 🔥@DonkeyInvestor

5Mon

@DonkeyInvestor The donkey, modest and honest as always! 😅

Why these brands?

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5Mon

@Epi I would probably use the million in crypto to pay for a property for my own use. The 2 million in ETFs would probably generate a gross dividend of 40,000 and plenty of growth. Together with the well-paid property, I could retire early with a very clear conscience

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Simon@sc1

5Mon

@DonkeyInvestor I think the amount is quite realistic. If you want to become independent from your job and make the most of your newfound time, you won't get there with 500k-1million.
I did a mental calculation some time ago and came up with the €2.5 million I need to be completely independent.

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Artiskon@Artiskon

5Mon

@DonkeyInvestor These figures keep running through my head when I think about it: what if I were to make money now?

Result: 3-4 million euros.
2 - 2.5 million would go into ETFs to make me financially free - instant pension 🙌

1 million for a house (not even that big), furnishings, an awesome racing bike from the top shelf, a nice family car plus starting a family.

Whatever is left over then goes into the account as hand money

If it's not quite that much, I'll just take the million for the house ;)

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Ben@deAes

5Mon

Two years back, after selling my company, I hit an 8-figure cash event. Now, I’m sitting on a decent pile of cash and investing about 300-350k a month across various assets. I still work a bit with my old company and bring in an extra ~200k a year in net-dividends. Technically, I’m financially free—but here’s the kicker: it doesn’t feel as fulfilling as I thought it would.

Honestly, the whole idea of wealth when you’re working toward it is way more exciting than the reality once you’re there. So my advice? Don’t rush. Enjoy the path toward your goals, because those moments are probably the most rewarding part.

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5Mon

@deAes Thank you for your report - if it can be believed on this platform 😉.

You're right, as soon as you arrive at your destination, it looks different than you thought. And the problem is that the goal is then gone! You either have a new one or a problem.

A question out of interest: what do you do with all the money you don't need? Investing only pushes the problem into the future.

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Ben@deAes

5Mon

@Epi correct, first impulse to diversify and protect your money from inflation. Being in my late 30s, married but no kids yet, I could see myself supporting a few NPOs down the line. Still living in the same rental apartment, just added a vacation spot in Spain, and we travel a lot. But honestly without the need to grind daily, it’s not so easy to find meaningful purpose again.

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5Mon

Studies show that from an income of 75k USD net (now with inflation ~100-110k net) no more means being happy. I think that if the capital yields at least 100k € per person p.a., then that's enough for me.

In other words, 300k for my family at 4% p.a. return after tax = 7.5 - 9 million and I would say I don't need more.

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5Mon

@Papiertiger Good calculation! At least the only objective one so far. I like something like that. 👍

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5Mon

@Epi If I had the 75k net p.a. as my sole income, then I would say it's enough. A bigger car/real estate/holidays/clothes doesn't make me any happier. I notice that every time I have a more expensive company pool car, after driving it 1-2 times the feeling is gone and I don't want it anymore

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Imvestment4Life@Investment4Life

5Mon

@Papiertiger Good attitude! But shh! 🤫 If everyone thought like that, we would have a problem as investors. So let people believe that consumption will make them happy so that they get on the hamster wheel and allow themselves to be exploited. 😬

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5Mon

@Papiertiger
I had a jump from 50K to 60K this year and can agree with that. (I also got a 26k bonus)

As of January I'm now on about 70K as I've been promoted and I'm not crying tears of joy.
I already take a lot of vacations every year, have all kinds of additional insurance and don't need a car in the city (girlfriend has one anyway 😃).
70% of my money goes into the stock market.

The thing is: I like working and do my job very well. Work 30% less than a few years ago. I think this combination with no money problems makes me the happiest and I think that's true for most people too!

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5Mon

@Investment4Life Sounds ideal! Good job, good wife, good money. What more could you want?

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Europoor@Europoor

5Mon

@Papiertiger The 75k study is nonsense. There are much more recent studies.

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5Mon

Think so that everything runs smoothly 300-400k, so only in the depot

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5Mon

@Bizzle Why 400k, if you don't mind me asking? With the 4%pa withdrawal rate, the portfolio generates just 10k pa and then another 20% tax on top of that, resulting in just 666€pM. Too much to die for, too little to live for...

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5Mon

@Epi I am just 23 years old and would only touch the money in an emergency. As things stand now, everything can still be reinvested. And the pot will slowly get fuller and fuller until I'm 50 :)

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5Mon

@Bizzle Okay, so the same question again: when is the pot full enough? 😉

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5Mon

@Epi I don't think there's an end, I don't think it has much to do with greed or anything like that, it's just a nice hedge, there's no end in sight.

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5Mon

@Bizzle Why no end? I mean, at some point you at least run out of imagination about what to spend money on sensibly, don't you? Above 80kpa there is no more gain in happiness in life. Why stress about more?

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5Mon

@Epi don't think you'll run out of imagination when you've achieved everything you want, then the question is how down-to-earth you still are. If you don't run out of money, then I would personally try to donate the "surplus". It shouldn't be that much more stress. It all depends on your standard of living.

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5Mon

@Bizzle I see. So you're in the "never enough" camp?

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5Mon

@Epi yes exactly, you can do so much good with the money you "don't need", so I think many who are active here are already doing well, but if you are really through and don't need anything more, then always like to do something good with the "surplus" :)

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View all 6 further answers

5Mon

@Bizzle If only it were that easy! 😅

But again: at what point would you have a "surplus"?

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Thomas@UndNun

5Mon

@Epi, @Bizzle But there is still a gain in happiness after that.
I agree that 80k pa (adjusted for inflation) should be enough for you.

But I dream of being able to support a larger number of other people who really need it, or good organizations.
It would give me great satisfaction if I could achieve that and do it for a long time.
Unfortunately, I am very, very far away from that and I don't know if I will ever achieve it.
At the moment I make do with small monthly donations to two worldwide charitable organizations.

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DieEnte7@DieEnte7

5Mon

Sounds strange, but I've never thought about it. Not necessarily because I always want more and more, but rather because I don't see the point in turning my life upside down when my assets exceed a certain limit. So for me, there is no deposit threshold beyond which I would suddenly change my behavior, not even in terms of my savings rate. I think for me it's more a question of age, regardless of how much I have saved. So I would answer the question with "When I'm 70, I think I want to sit back and live off my savings and do whatever I feel like doing, regardless of whether I have 2 million or 100,000 at my disposal". What I definitely want to have achieved by then is to have bought a nice detached house and paid it off in full.

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Sven@Svengus

5Mon

@DieEnte7 If you're still able to enjoy life and all that money when you're 70.

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5Mon

@Svengus The pleasure at 70 is certainly different to that at 30. 😅
I'm coming up the stairs. 🏆
I don't have back pain. 🎉
My neighbor said hello to me. 🏅

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DieEnte7@DieEnte7

5Mon

@Svengus Of course I hope so - but at the same time I wouldn't take early retirement on suspicion, at least not yet. Somehow not having a daily occupation in my late 50s apart from the question of how I spend my money is not at all desirable for me

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5Mon

@DieEnte7 is also a "luxury problem". More than 70% of Germans are dissatisfied or "mostly dissatisfied" in their job. Many have resigned internally.
Of course, a job that you really enjoy is the ideal situation. From my own experience, I can say: it's not that easy. I had great tasks during my training, but was paid badly (even afterwards). As a working student afterwards, I had the dream job of my life; guiding people in the warehouse, occasionally moving the forklift myself if I felt like it and managing the scheduling in the office (logistics food retail). Already better paid than before. But had to leave the job during the practical semester at another company.
Then various jobs after graduation, each time with salary adjustments. Logically, the salary increased with the responsibility, but so did the stress. In my last job, I had an almost 100% increase in salary compared to my first job after graduation (6 years later). But I was never able to plan anything for it, because even at 17:30 there was still "something to do" (which could take 2-3 hours). Top salary for me, but a flexible schedule until at least 19:30.

Now I have a great job, great colleagues, great boss, great employees, good salary. If just one of the points changes, it's already much worse again. Knowing that you don't have to work makes it much more relaxed. In principle, I do want to work. But only if it's fun. And it's only fun under certain conditions. If you can relax and look for a new job for 6 months in between without thinking twice about whether the "mediocre" job offer isn't attractive enough after all, you've achieved a lot in my opinion.

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DerDanner@Therapeut

5Mon

At the moment, €100,000 in the portfolio is enough and I still have around 40 years until I retire. Dividend distributions of €40,000 a year would also be great.

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5Mon

@Therapeut That would probably be the target of 40kpa in 40 years with approx. 2.5% inflation, which is only a little more than 1kpM in today's money. Hardly enough to live on...

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DerDanner@Therapeut

5Mon

@Epi Yes, I still want to work, the money should only serve as an option not to have to work full time.

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TaxesAreTheft@TaxesAreTheft

5Mon

@Therapeut I have a similar view. Money is freedom. 👍

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5Mon

Actually, it's never enough, I would always keep on compoding and would pass this on to my offspring. But a big milestone is the €50000 in annual dividends. That would be the point at which I think I've "made it".

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5Mon

It's funny how "relatively" small the sums are here and how little is piled up, probably typical German style.

If you ask Americans, Chinese or Australians, I'll bet you an ice cream that they'd all rather say 5-10 million capital, so that you only have to work to fulfill your dreams/fun, because they all know/get equity pensions.

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5Mon

@Papiertiger You're right! Although life there is also a lot more expensive. But perhaps these sums are actually within the scope of sufficient capital for a good life in Germany in 2045?

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5Mon

@Papiertiger I think it depends a lot on who you ask. There are a few crazy people who stopped working in their late 20s. Or in their early 30s like Mr. Money Moustache. Now in his early 50s, he has multiplied his fortune many times over since reaching Fire. But of course he also caught a great time to retire.
What I was getting at: there are also Americans who get by on USD 3,000 a month. And there are certainly Europeans who need 30,000, so I don't have to look for them.
Everyone has their own ideas about how they want to live, what they want to do themselves (cleaning the apartment (or having it cleaned) can easily make a difference of 1k / month. Some people drive a used small car, others need a Ferrari to feel good about themselves.

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5Mon

@KevinE everything is correct. There are enough who stand out from the nornal distribution and then appear especially here at gq. Anecdotally, I can also tell you about an acquaintance who got a few properties from his parents and in the boom years simply flipped one place after the other with them and by his mid-30s he was well off.

In the normal distribution, I do believe (without proof, of course) that Germans tend to stack lower on the outside 😉

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5Mon

@Papiertiger You're definitely right. In Germany, wealth has a much more negative connotation than in the US. People are more interested in how you "made it".
In Germany: the successful craftsman "only earned everything in the black", successful investments "were just luck", the entrepreneur "exploited all of his employees", etc.
It seems to me that the mindset here is much more closely aligned with the social market economy than with capitalism in the USA.

I can live with both, but I don't like extremely negative attitudes (envy / resentment). The rest should be guided by a (good) state framework.

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Uwe@SchlaubiSchlumpf

5Mon

Then when I could quit my job. Since I probably won't do it right away, I'll have a spending problem. The best of the problems

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iTom@iTom

5Mon

At the age of 55, a portfolio value of €1 million is enough for me. Consisting of 70 % MSCI All-World, 20 % bonds & 10 % commodities (gold, silver,...)

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Johnny B.@JBatelli

5Mon

I currently earn €3400 net. That's enough for me to live on. I can live well on that and even put a lot aside. I would like to maintain this level with dividends. In other words, €40,800 net dividends per year. Equal to €55,000 gross dividend. With a 5% dividend yield, that's €1.1 million in the portfolio.

But there is also a lot of leeway. With €3,000 net per month and a dividend yield of 7%, you would "only" need €700,000.

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5Mon

@JBatelli Sounds good. But have you taken into account that you won't save any more during the savings phase? Don't use your net income, but your disposable income after the savings rate. Because if you're living off divs, you're no longer saving. Then it might still be 2500€pM. What would be your goal then?

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5Mon

@JBatelli if children are added, you can earn at least 150k - with studying and many hobbies I would calculate at least 250k - plus until you move out. Then it will fit with 3,400 flaps but feel more like €4,000 🤓

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Johnny B.@JBatelli

5Mon

@Epi Yes, that's right. It would be €2800 without saving. Then the target would be €650,000. And the savings plan calculator says that with my monthly savings installment of €600 and €72,000 starting capital, I would reach my target in 22 years with "only" a 7% return. It's kind of crazy to think that at the age of 48 the dividends might exceed my salary. Others have to work for at least another 15 years. Investing is fun 😅

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5Mon

@JBatelli So the calculation is more likely to be correct. Now we just need to add inflation to the calculation 😉
So 7%pa return - 3%pa inflation and 3%pa savings plan increase. Now do the math again - when can you live off divs?

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5Mon

@JBatelli I would also assume an inflation-adjusted return of 5%

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5Mon

Your chart is not suggesting capital depletion. Personally, I don't want to take anything with me if I drop dead, so less than the 4% withdrawal rate is enough for me.
For me, 1 million would be the limit where I would probably stop saving.

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5Mon

@Madhatter5566 I think it's kind of selfish, isn't it nice to have created some security for your children and grandchildren?

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote They can fight over the leftover corners. If I want to give them something, I'll do it while I'm still alive.

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote Haha! Doing something to make yourself feel good isn't selfish now? 😅

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5Mon

@Epi I don't understand. If you feel good about yourself when you do something good for others, that's selfless and definitely not selfish

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote Giving to others in exchange for a "good feeling" is selfish. Just like blowing your own money and feeling "good" about it. Personally, I give during my lifetime and not afterwards, because everything that comes after that... is who cares. And anyone who has seen how the vultures circle after the inheritance gives away, if anything, before. You have no control afterwards.

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote Well, if you do something else because it makes you feel good or BECAUSE it makes you feel good, then it's classic selfishness wrapped up in moralism. 🤷

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5Mon

@Madhatter5566 I see it differently, I am doing something good BECAUSE I want to give my children a good start and a financial cushion. Knowing that my children are secure also makes me feel "good"

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote Sure, if the good feeling is just a by-product, it may be true that doing good is not selfish.
But beware! Selfishness lurks everywhere. After all, it is YOUR children you are doing good for. Your own MiniMe's are also just versions of yourself. What you do to them, you are basically doing to your extended self. 😉

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5Mon

@BisInDieLetzteFussnote Is that what you're doing by letting the vultures circle after you? There are much better ways, and above all, they lead you safely to your destination.

And you do them all during your lifetime. The idea that there has to be capital left after your death is just stupid. Especially when you see how many people die much earlier anyway.

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