1Yr

@PassiveAggressive Too bad actually exactly what I thought. Do you have an approach to diversify better. Everything in stocks increasingly bothers me.

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Mac M.@Kronos_

1Yr

@JKTaurus etf? You can sleep very calm when you know you have a 200.000€ world etf :)

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Date von @Epi@DonkeyInvestor

1Yr

@Kronos_ you're better built than I am. I would not like to have more than 30% in shares in any form.

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Mac M.@Kronos_

1Yr

@JKTaurus I could also recommend you bonds and tangible assets :)

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Chris@PassiveAggressive

1Yr

@JKTaurus Unfortunately, I don't know of anything better in terms of the risk/return ratio. Apart from the nest egg, I am 100% invested in shares myself. A future owner-occupied property could still come - but only for the lifestyle and definitely not for the return. You can, if you want to diversify over other asset classes, of course (government) bonds. They bring a little more stability, but reduce the return compared to 100% equities. To get even more out of the passive equity approach, you can also use smart beta factors. This way you will get at least statistically a few more basis points over the long term (far beyond 15 years). However, it remains roughly with the passive and rule-based world ETF. Everything else with excess return potential (self-founding, stock picking, crypto, market timing,...) unfortunately has no historical "guarantee of success", no matter how hard you try.

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1Yr

@JKTaurus You can of course add gold, bonds, time deposits and crypto. Whether you're better off with that, don't know.... But actually, the logic behind a world ETF is simple: it goes up when the world economy goes up. Since every government and almost every company in the world has an interest in growth, you can assume that everything will be done so that the world economy will continue to grow. And if that should no longer be the case, we will probably have completely different problems or no problems at all. And then your world ETF doesn't matter.

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NiMe@NiMe

1Yr

@PassiveAggressive Thank you for the beautiful and apt wording. Especially the last paragraph is pure gold!

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1Yr

@DonkeyInvestor that with the world ETF is clear to me and also my thesis. I am just looking for other values / investments that are comparable in terms of return and the effort if rewarded with. There seems to be as you already noted nothing like that.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

1Yr

@JKTaurus What do you think is wrong with a share of > 30%?

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View all 4 further answers

1Yr

@KevinC you probably mean against a share size to 30%

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1Yr

So fiscally, real estate can be very very interesting, so I would definitely advise you to see a good tax advisor. I bought three small apartments 3 years ago. All apartments have one thing in common - the sellers were well-disposed towards me and I was the first and only one to view the apartments. Speed is therefore insanely important. My target return after taxes is 13 percent (return on equity) p.a. - and that's at normal rental prices. But one cannot speak of passive income - rather entrepreneurship. Last week is almost before the purchase of another apartment - unfortunately, the seller then but still canceled. But the market has become more difficult - I visit significantly fewer apartments - now only those where private individuals are offered. But 510 K for 13 euros per square meter rent I find now not so good. So at the current interest rates, I would like to pay a maximum of 20 annual rents (in Stuttgart). Many greetings and a nice evening 🖖

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Date von @Epi@DonkeyInvestor

1Yr

@Moneymoney 13% is of course fantastic. So do I have to reduce the purchase price extremely or do you get there through some tax tricks?

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1Yr

@Moneymoney and I thought you were from Heidelberg. So from the name. Learned something again 👍

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1Yr

@JKTaurus probably both. But I don't know the real estate market in Berlin in detail. I would say that in Munich, for example, it is impossible to buy an apartment for 20 annual rents. For my apartment I have paid between 22-24 annual rents - but for that I have an average interest rate of 1.2 percent. The profit is in the purchase. I bought all the apartments furnished. The furniture can be depreciated well and quickly. Our income is not mega high - just above the average in Stuttgart - but we already have the top tax rate - the higher the tax rate, the more you can deduct. On the subject of taxes, I'll give you a few keywords that you can google and ask your tax advisor. Unsecured private loans from family members, spousal swing - immocation is a good YouTube channel for this topic - even if in my view they clearly exaggerate the scope for negotiation.

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1Yr

@DonkeyInvestor 🤦‍♂️😂

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1Yr

@Moneymoney top, thank you. Immocation I have seen on Google looks extremely unserious to me. 😅 but maybe I need to open up more.

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Felix@Investor_in_Jogginghose

1Yr

@JKTaurus really. Nah immocation is really good 👍🏻...they just massively exaggerate on the negotiating leverage. It must be said that the average real estate purchase is probably really bad. But if you actually find a favorable object - for whatever reason (personal contact or sympathy) then a deal is worthwhile. Important are a good credit rating, high tax rate, a good tax advisor and you must not remain in his investment . Of advantage are also craftsmanship- but I also do not have. 😂

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1Yr

I bought in 2015 in Chemnitz 75sqm bj 1995 for 89,000. Initial rent was 380€ cold now 490€ cold. Until now the return was good but I prefer to make shares. Immos are not so easy to maintain

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Felix@Investor_in_Jogginghose

1Yr

@MiIliardenmehling did you have a thesis regarding rent increases and or a target return on purchase?

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1Yr

@JKTaurus I calculated the return on equity beforehand. annual net cold rent -costs / capital employed*100 In my case, that was "only" 15% with which my capital earns interest. I had to bring 25,000€ EK, but no matter. The return grows with rent increases and paying off the loan because less interest year after year. Also the loan devalues itself by the money inflation. Wages increase yearly about 3% while the loan amount stays the same. Interest is at 1.77% so the loan is more or less free.

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Felix@Investor_in_Jogginghose

1Yr

@MiIliardenmehling A very good 15% is really respectable. 25,000 EK and there are then also the costs for notary and land transfer tax etc. in it? Sounds relatively little to me at first.

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1Yr

@JKTaurus yes, ancillary costs included. In Saxony, by the way, the land transfer tax is only 3.5%.

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Pezi@Pezi

1Yr

The advantage of real estate is that you don't get a daily price, like with stocks or an ETF. That lets most Germans sleep better...

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Hodlinvestor@Hodlinvestor

1Yr

I started, almost 20 years ago, with one-room apartments. Then umgeschichtetet on 2-3 room apartments. since two years everything is sold. apartments have advantages and disadvantages, which one must be aware! I could work with the leverage the real estate offer well. One must use the tax advantages. With "debts" calmly sleep to be able. And after 10 years sell and again new buy. Quickly become rich is not given, completely on the contrary evtl. Much work. If you are aware of that it is ok. Normally a full-length topic. And not a three liner.

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1Yr

@Hodlinvestor Why are you currently selling everything? Do you no longer see any increase in the value of the property? I read a forecast for Berlin that said 1.24% per year for the next 30 years.

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Chefkoch256@Chefkoch256

1Yr

I bought a 54m² new apartment in 2017 for about 400,000 € including utilities. 130,000 € were equity, the rest is financed at just under 2% (rate 1,280 €). With house money (about 360 €) and personal reserves (200 €) results in a warm rent of 1,280 €, that I have to contribute about 560 € per month. But this is planned on purpose, quasi as a mandatory savings rate. If I then add the additional costs, the tax depreciation and the advertising costs, it comes out altogether on a scarce red zero. Of course I don't have a positive cash flow until the loan is paid off (unless I increase the rent), but after that I have a paid-off condo and all income remains with me. I calculate with about 800€ per month after taxes, appreciation and rent increases left out of the equation. There is definitely work involved in renting: finding tenants, owners' meetings, ... If this is not your thing, an administrator can do it for you, but then your return suffers a lot. P.s. Apartment is in the Speckgürtel of Munich, so the rent is even fair and not expensive. I am one of the cheapest landlords in the entire Komolex.

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1Yr

@Chefkoch256 basically means you're not doing this for a return aspect? What is your motivation behind it?

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Chefkoch256@Chefkoch256

1Yr

@JKTaurus not in the short term. Once the loan has been repaid, I will increase my salary and later my pension by around €800 net per month. That's almost €10,000 a year, and in addition I still have the equivalent value of the apartment up my sleeve. Thanks to index rent, this adjusts to inflation, so I can neglect that. I would rather compare it to a dividend strategy, where you also rely on cash flow, but with an apartment you have much less fluctuation in terms of the value of the apartment and the amount of rent. A regularly paying tenant as a prerequisite, of course.

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1Yr

@Chefkoch256 If I see this correctly, you are then somewhere around two maybe 3% yield, right?

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Chefkoch256@Chefkoch256

1Yr

@JKTaurus All in all, a very positive calculation: very low risk with a very secure return, and that after taxes and inflation... In addition, there is still a lot that can be done via the tax, key words depreciation and income-related expenses.

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Adel;.@tAdel

1Yr

I must confess; I have not read through all the answers, but real estate investments have a different way of yield... On the one hand, of course, interest (rent) and "price gains" (property / house increases in value). Since rarely jmd buys an apartment or a house cash, but ~20% cash reinschießt and the rest with FK (until 22 easy, now rather less) financed. This gives you a direct leverage on your equity + renovation costs / interest costs reduce your tax payable on the lease (+ after 10 Jahrwn is also the profit on the sale of the object tax free). You see, as always, it is not as simple as it is spoken. This "yes you would have just 1990 instead of 100k (20k EK and rest FK) in an apartment to put just 20k in the Dax geballert. Loans for securities are, to my knowledge, not particularly happy to grant and if then at far worse conditions ...

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1Yr

@tAdel I just have to look at this tax savings issue, I think. So far, I do not see how to get a return on it. After all, I have to spend money beforehand to be able to deduct them from taxes.

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Anditisgone@Anditisgone

1Yr

I wouldn’t invest in german real estate, so many stupid laws. Returns aren’t comparable to stocks…

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Matthias@Aktienhengst

1Yr

I have invested in a property in Vienna and would do it again at any time.

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Das Portfoliopferd@Portfoliopferd

1Yr

@Aktienhengst are you from austria or have you invested abroad???

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Matthias@Aktienhengst

1Yr

@JKTaurus no, I live in Vienna

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1Yr

Renovation, new heating, management...

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1Yr

@Portfoliopferd Yes, that's why I'm still so averse to making such an effort for 6% at the moment.

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Sparfuchs@Reinecke

1Yr

13 Euro rent for an apartment with 5100€/m2 and then also old building ? I feel really sorry for you in Berlin. Well then earn determined also accordingly.

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1Yr

@KleinviehmachtMist Maybe you could ask for more rent, but I prefer to be conservative in my calculations.

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1Yr

Real estate is in my opinion the heaviest investment what there is for private investors, with the current interest rates and prices there is anyway no more investment because you can not ask so much rent or the people can not pay. I myself rent for 13 years and that is almost a side job. I personally get me no more, with the conditions in this crazy country and the even crazier EU it is no longer fun, you are gutted like ne Christmas goose.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

1Yr

@Phily that is also the point that puts me off. renting is everything, but not passively earned money. That's why I'm invested exclusively in the stock market. Bought at the right time, properties are of course much more attractive, but the work remains. You have to want to do that and I have respect for every good landlord.

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1Yr

@Phily the point with the amount of rent. In relation to purchase price I also see. Regarding the attitude to EU and Germany, which I do not at all with. I think that here in Germany you are still offered much better opportunities than in most other countries. I think we have a theme here with constant complaining and everything is always bad there is a lack of doer quality. I personally also have no problem at all with paying taxes . Even if I would of course wish these would sometimes be a little lower, but at the end of the day you support the infrastructure that you use every day.

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1Yr

@JKTaurus with Germany and the EU I meant, this Sanierungszwang and all other things where the two interfere in the private market economy and ruins the lives of many.

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Deleted User

1Yr

Comment was deleted

1Yr

@Djokovic_GOAT then you have been lucky so far.

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Kevin E.@KevinE

1Yr

@Djokovic_GOAT I am currently on a finca (rent). In so far 6 days defective: air conditioning in 2 rooms, a bed collapsed. In my professional apartment is within 11 months 3x the heating in the bathroom completely failed, 2x dripped SOMETHING from the apartment above me through the ceiling, etc. I have some landlords in my family and can say that there are very many tenants who are very - to put it mildly - demanding (not to say "severely delayed paying", constantly in dispute with other residents of the house, rent nomadism, etc.).

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1Yr

@KevinC is that something you possibly get around with a certain price. So for example from 15 € the square meter you no longer have quite so bad?

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